Episode 707
John Hodgman and China Forbes
Humorist John Hodgman chats about ruling the "court" in his hit podcast Judge John Hodgman, plus his stint as a cheese monger and why reading Moby Dick does not give you the right to go "a-whaling" in the state of Maine; and China Forbes, lead vocalist of the "little orchestra" known as Pink Martini, joins the program as a solo act and performs "Full Circle" from her album The Road.
John Hodgman
Comedian and Podcaster
John Hodgman is an author, actor, and comedian. He is the host of the Webby award winning Judge John Hodgman podcast, as well as the author of the weekly New York Times Magazine column of the same name. His fiction and humor have appeared in the New Yorker, The Paris Review, and Mad Magazine. And he is the co-star and co-creator of the animated show Dicktown on Hulu.
China Forbes
Musician and Singer
China Forbes was born and raised in Cambridge, Massachusetts. After winning the Jonathan Levy Prize at Harvard for “most promising actor,” Forbes earned her Equity card appearing in New York regional theater and off-Broadway productions while also performing regularly as a singer-songwriter in NYC clubs. Thomas Lauderdale, her friend and classmate from Harvard, invited her to sing with fledgling Portland, Oregon band Pink Martini in 1995. China has fronted the little orchestra ever since, having co-written many of their most beloved songs. Singing in over 20 languages on nine Pink Martini studio albums, China has graced the legendary stages of Carnegie Hall, Red Rocks, the Hollywood Bowl, Paris’s l’Olympia, the Sydney Opera House, and Royal Albert Hall. She is the recipient of the 2022 Ella Fitzgerald Award at the Montreal International Jazz Festival. Her recent releases include her post-pandemic anthem Full Circle, followed by her suicide prevention anthem “Rise,” both featured tracks on her new solo album The Road (2024). She recently announced that she will be taking a two-year sabbatical from Pink Martini to stay home in Portland with her 16-year-old son until he goes to college.
Show Notes
Best News
Elena’s story: “Good News, Millennials: The Side Part Has Returned”
Luke’s story: “English Heritage launches ‘bonding benches’ to tackle parental isolation”
John Hodgman
John talks about his podcast, Judge John Hodgeman (created by Jesse Thorn of Bulls Eye and Jordan, Jesse, Go!)
Christopher Frizell’s project FrizzLit inspired John’s Moby Dick readings in a Maine accent. You can find the rest of the book on John’s substack, Secret Society.
China Forbes
China’s sister, Maya Forbes, wrote and directed the biopic Infinitely Polar Bear (2014) based on the sisters’ growing up experience.
China plays “Full Circle” from her 2024 solo album, The Road.
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Elena Passarello: From PRX, it's... Live Wire! This week, humorous John Hodgman.
John Hodgman: We have many people come up to Maine every summer saying, I just read Moby Dick, shall we go whaling?
Elena Passarello: With music from China Forbes.
China Forbes: Well, a Pink Martini record is created in more of sort of a swirling chaos of many people, and my album was like being alone in a room most of the time.
Luke Burbank: That sounds like boundaries.
Elena Passarello: And our fabulous house band. I'm your announcer, Elena Pasarello, and now the host of Live Wire, Luke Burbank!
Luke Burbank: Thank you everyone for coming out for Live Wire. You're in Portland, Oregon. We have a phenomenal show in store for you this week. I can't wait to get to it. Of course, though, we've got to kick things off the way that we always like to with a little segment we call The Best News We Heard All Week. It's sort of right there in the title, okay? The best news we heard all week, but just in case you need an explanation, a lot of the news is not the best news. And so we searched far and wide. Yeah, somebody in the audience said no. I can't disagree with that analysis, sir.
Luke Burbank: So, we go find some actually decent news and we tell you about it just to try to keep everybody's spirits a little bit up. Elena, what's the best news you heard all week?
Elena Passarello: So there was an article in, of all places, the New York Times recently. [Luke: Heard of it.] Yeah, very busy doing some hard-nosed reporting and they came back with some information that we can all use. The side part is coming back. So people are cheering. Did you hear the cheering? [Luke: Yes.] So I didn't know this, but during the pandemic on TikTok and places like that, there was an all-out assault on the side part as being like millennial cheugy. [Luke: Cheugy.] Yeah, which I had to learn how to pronounce that in order to say this. And middle parts were just all you could do if you wanted to be au courant. And it was like what a millennial would do to part their hair on the side. Also things that were considered not au courante anymore, skinny jeans, no-show socks.
Luke Burbank: No show socks being the kind of like little short ones so you can wear your shoes, but it doesn't look like you have socks on but you have socks
Elena Passarello: Totally didn't know that. Using the laughing so hard you're crying emoji, which is my love language, basically.
Luke Burbank: I literally wore that emoji out.
Elena Passarello: I am the reason it went out of style.
Luke Burbank: I punctuate, anybody who knows me, that I probably punctuate almost every, and also not just punctuate but add that into the middle of every text message that I sent.
Elena Passarello: You're like, the test results came back.
Luke Burbank: They're not good.
Luke Burbank: Laughy, crying, emoji.
Elena Passarello: This is my favorite thing that apparently was as unfashionable as the side part for the past six years. Lasagna! [Luke: What?!] Poor Garfield! [Luke: I mean... ] So, the good news, I think, is not just that the side-part is coming back and I am apparently back in fashion, but the real good news is... I don't give a crap. I had no idea, I reached the age, they didn't even talk about my generation. I've been tossed overboard to do whatever I want with my pants and my lasagna, and that. That is the best news I've heard all week.
Luke Burbank: Shine sweet freedom, the freedom of no longer even being in the conversation. The best news that I heard all week takes us over to England where they have the English Heritage Society and they run a lot of these English heritage sites, you know, castles and gardens and things. And they were noticing that a lot the people that were using these English Heritage sites tended to be families and tended to, in particular, parents with kind of children. And a number of the people who kind of worked for the English Heritage Society were also themselves parents with kind of younger children. And they were having this feeling of like, sort of parental loneliness. Like it's a weird thing because you have these small humans that need you so much and yet in that you can also feel kind of like lonely. They were looking at this one study over there that found that two thirds of new parents said they felt lonely or isolated at least some of the time. And almost 90% said they felt overwhelmed some of time, which sounds low. Like that should be like 130% if you've...
Elena Passarello: But new parents and their neighbors.
Luke Burbank: Yes, exactly. And anyone in their orbit. So they sort of hit upon this idea, which they're now putting at all of the English heritage sites, which they're calling them bonding benches. And they're putting these in the areas where people were hanging out, like watching their kids play on the playground or the whatever stuff. And so it is a bench where if you are a parent and you would kind of like to maybe strike up a conversation or just whatever, you can sit on the bench. You can have a chat. Here's what they did though, because I heard a little bit of hesitance in your voice, Elena. There is a little sign that you can slide on the bonding bench. And it goes from up for a chat to craving quiet.
Elena Passarello: Oh, nice.
Luke Burbank: So they're factoring in that maybe not everybody on the bonding bench wants to have a conversation with strangers. I'm hoping that people avail themselves of the up for a chat function a little bit because I totally identify with that feeling of like getting into an elevator or getting on the airplane and sending someone and that feeling of like dread about opening up a conversation with someone you don't know.
Elena Passarello: Yeah, do they wanna talk? Do they not?
Luke Burbank: Do you wanna talk to them? Is this gonna be torture? Have you noticed, Elena? I feel like the Germans, if they don't have a word for it, they should. It's the sound on the airplane when the airplane has landed and is taxiing because everybody starts talking to the person next to them. Because worst case scenario, you're with them for eight more minutes. This massive anxiety fever breaks and everybody wants to talk to everybody on the plane because you're not like rolling the dice on the next five hours of your life.
Elena Passarello: Yeah, and it's always terrible when you're getting into a good conversation with someone but it kind of naturally peters out and then you know you have four more hours of flying and it is like how do you break up with this person so that you can watch Below Deck?
Luke Burbank: This is why AirPods were designed. Well, anyway, I just do think what I can say is that when I engage in conversations with people, the vast majority of the time, I am feeling enriched by the experience. It's like so many things in life where you kind of don't want to do it. And then after it happens, you're like, I'm glad that that happened. So the idea that some parents in England are having their loneliness at least moderately sort of improved is, for me, that's the best news I heard all week. You're listening to Live Wire Radio. Let's get our first guest on out here. He's an author, actor, and comedian whose work has appeared everywhere, from The New Yorker to Mad Magazine. He's also the author of wonderful books like Vacationland and Medallion Status, where he detailed his exploits, taking a struggling public radio show into purchasing him a first-class ticket all the way across the country as part of his all-consuming pursuit of airline miles. That radio show was this one, Live Wire, but it's fine. He's also co-host along with Jesse Thorn of the hit podcast, Judge John Hodgman. And we're so thrilled to have him back. Please welcome John Hodgman to Live Wire. John, welcome back to Live Wire.
John Hodgman: It's so nice to be here, to have flown here again.
Luke Burbank: I know, I know. We've dined out on this story too many times. In fact, I made it a goal to not bring it up this interview because we've talked about it at length, but then they put it in the intro and I thought it was kind of funny.
John Hodgman: They put it in the intro. It's a wise NPR host who blames his staff.
Luke Burbank: You think this show's on NPR? We're PRX.
John Hodgman: Oh, excuse me. Well, I have to fly home now. Yes.
Luke Burbank: John Hodgman, everyone. A lot of folks know you from your Judge John Hodgman show that you do with Jesse Thorn and also in the pages of the New York Times. How did you get into that role? It was something you were doing on a different Maximum Fun show, a character, and did you have an air of judginess and authority about you that... cast you in the role?
John Hodgman: Well, I think it's pretty clear that I am judgmental. And I had already been on The Daily Show as a fake resident expert and self-made deranged authority on all things. So my friend Jesse Thorn, who has a number of wonderful podcasts and radio shows, including Bulls Eye on NPR, and as well the podcast on Maximum Fun called Jordan Jesse Goath said, would you ever? Consider being a judge like Judge Judy or the People's Court where you hear disputes from real people and I said I've I've waited for this call my whole life
Luke Burbank: Here's what I think is so funny though, is that you are, as far as my knowing of you, one of the nicest people in the business. This morning we were trying to locate a candle that's related to the Judge John Hodgman store. It's the scent is what again of this candle?
John Hodgman: Well, it's our holiday scented candle and the smell is justice.
Luke Burbank: And you were like, I sent you this email really early in the morning and said like, hey, do you have, do travel with the candle? And you said, no, but then. I look, and you're on Instagram, where you have hundreds of thousands of followers, you're trying to locate the candle. My point is, you're a very nice, very thoughtful person, and yet your persona is kind of being someone who's a bit imperious and kind of judgy. I don't find you to be that way in real life, though.
John Hodgman: Forgive my pause there, Luke. I was looking into the eyes of my lover. It was such a kind, a kind thing for you to say, and I just wanted to savor it for a moment.
Luke Burbank: I'm feeling radically unstable right now.
John Hodgman: The Judge John Hodgman podcast is judgmental, true. We have real people calling in with real and sometimes surreal disputes. Friends, roommates, a lot of couples, some siblings and so forth, and they're asking the hard questions like, is a hot dog a sandwich?
Luke Burbank: Or could you beat up a great white shark, which happened during, what was that show, Probable Jaws?
John Hodgman: It was our show, Probable Jaws, it was called. Yeah, we had...
Luke Burbank: What did you decide?
John Hodgman: Well, it's two women who were friends, Jessica and Natasha, and Natasha wanted me to rule that her friend Jessica could not, as she claimed, beat up a great white shark. And we did not put it to the test. [Luke: No.] Because I didn't have to. It turned out Jessica cannot swim, which is a... Yeah, something of a disadvantage when fighting a great white shark. And I did examine and Jessica has only one row of teeth. So I figured that it was unlikely that she could do not.
Luke Burbank: Her teeth do not replace just another row that comes out and replaces the broken ones like a shark would.
John Hodgman: What we're looking for, even though some of these disputes seem silly, we're looking for the emotional crux, the reality behind them. So, you know, we had a father and son on, and the son was very upset with the dad because he would always tell the exact same joke, or I should say inflict the exact same joke on any server in any restaurant he might go to. And he would say, whatever it was, I'll have the Kung Pao chicken. And it didn't matter whether it was an Italian restaurant. Actually, it didn't matter if it might be a manned tollbooth. They would say, I'll have the Kung Pao chicken. And we have settled law in the court of Judge John Hodgman, which is be mindful of the work that you leave for others. So if you make a joke, no matter how funny you think it is, that joke causes your server confusion. And they are a trapped audience. And you are making more work for them as they try to figure out what's wrong with this weird dad. [Luke: Right.] You shouldn't do this to people who are just trying to help you, you know? And similarly, you know, like if you, if your husband is doing the laundry and folding it, you shouldn't pretend to be a cat and knock the laundry over. You can save that kind of role play for a different room in the house.
Luke Burbank: So you, I mean, the show is built around this idea of these kinds of somewhat silly disagreements, but you're also trying to get to the emotional core of just what it is to share life with people, basically.
John Hodgman: Yeah, exactly. And you know, another piece of settled law is that people like what they like. You can't force your loved one to love your favorite movie or even like it. You can force your husband, as one woman in Ontario wanted to do, to like your favorite topping on French toast. [Luke: Which was?] Ketchup.
Luke Burbank: I believe you, have experimented with this with Nick Offerman?
John Hodgman: Yeah, Nick Offerman was a guest on the show, and I made him eat French toast with ketchup. I ate it as well. And you know, could have been worse, could have been worst, but don't ever do it again. I do want to say that we did have one of our listeners, Pam, up in Seattle, suggested some years ago a different flavor combination, which is eggnog mixed with orange soda. And I tried it, and it's damn delicious. And in fact, we have it every year on our holiday episode. We call it the Fanta Clause.
Luke Burbank: But you and Jordan Morris have been doing something on a yearly basis that I just can't stop thinking about. And I want to ask you about it right after this quick break. We're talking to John Hodgman here on Live Wire. Much more coming your way in just a moment. Welcome back to Live Wire from PRX. We're at Revolution Hall in Portland. This week, we are talking to the great John Hodgman. Um, you have been doing this once a year podcast with Jordan Morris, who's also part of the Maximum Fun Universe. [John: That's correct.] Um, and it's a yearly podcast about cheese and it is called?
John Hodgman: Shooting the Bries.
Luke Burbank: Bries as in B-R-I-E-S.
John Hodgman: That, again, was another Jesse Thorn idea. I don't know what weird spell he put me under that I have to do everything he says, including doing cheese shows based on terrible wordplay. But I'm happy to talk about cheese at any time. I've monged cheese professionally in my time.
Elena Passarello: You were a monger?
Luke Burbank: I've mongered.
John Hodgman: You've monged?
Luke Burbank: I once did a TV story about the International Cheese Mongering Championship in San Francisco.
John Hodgman: Oh, but you've never sold cheese. You've never cut the cheese.
Luke Burbank: These hands have never mongered, my friend. These are the soft hands of a public radio host. You've actually cheese mongered.
John Hodgman: I worked in a fine cheese and wine shop in London when I took a semester off from college to go on a drink-abroad program that I had devised for myself.
Luke Burbank: The um, something that you've been creating for a while now is this secret society. It's a substack, but how do you describe it? It's sort of great, it's your musings on life, it's all kinds of interesting information, you put in little video clips and things.
John Hodgman: Yeah, so, you know, like everyone on Earth, I have a sub stack now, and I started it as an opportunity to just sort of let people know where I was appearing, like I'm going to be on Live Wire, for example. And then, and then I started, like, and, I would muse and so forth, then I start to lose faith in my musings and I was like, what am I going to give to the people who belong to this secret society? And, you know, I had, a couple of years ago, I joined an online book group with our friend, Christopher Frizzelle. His substack and his book, literary substack, is called FrizzLit, and he would host these Zoom meetings and I was reading Middlemarch, which is a wonderful novel by George Eliot. I don't know if you've ever heard of it. I read the whole thing, thanks to the friends in this group who kept me honest. And I was like, oh, I love this book so much. What will I read next? What piece of English language literature classic that I had never read will I next? And it came to my mind. I'm a weird, withered New Englander. Why not Moby Dick? And then I'm like, well, if I'm reading Moby Dick, why don't I read it out loud to the people who subscribe to my newsletter? And if I am reading Moby Dick out loud to the people subscribed to my news letter, why don't I do it in a fake Maine accent? [Luke: Right.] Because I spend part of my life in Maine. I don't like to reveal where it is. I'll just simply say that it's a coastal town that shares the name with the borough of New York City. Now some of you are gonna get very smart and look at a map and realize Hodgman lives in. Staten Island, Maine. But the point is. I love the main accent, and I love it so much that I occasionally murder it for other people's amusement.
Luke Burbank: Because you're from Brookline, Massachusetts.
John Hodgman: I'm from Brookline, Massachusetts, so this is the Brookline accent. You probably can tell.
Luke Burbank: The famous Brookline.
John Hodgman: Yeah, the famous down home Brookline accent.
Luke Burbank: I love listening to you reading Moby Dick, though, through this secret society substack in your main accent. And I was wondering, even though the folks here at Revolution Hall and the folks listening on the radio may have not actually paid their $7 a month to subscribe to the substack, Could you favor us with a little bit of your?
John Hodgman: Well, there just happens to be a copy of Moby Dick here. Now when I say that this is my main accent, this is my interpretation of a main accent, that is, it's about half an homage to the non-main, main humorous Marshall Dodge who released records under the label Bert and I, and also to Pepperidge Farm.
Luke Burbank: That's my main, that's my North Star. When it comes to
John Hodgman: You remember, right?
Luke Burbank: If I was going to switch into a main accent, I would be quoting a guy from the Pepperidge Farm commercial.
John Hodgman: And so, you know, if you've ever read Moby Dick, it's quite wordy. I find that reading in a main accent gives it a little bit more parsable, let's say. You know, I'm going to read from the very beginning. It's got a famous, very famous opening line. This is chapter one called Loomings. Call me Ishmael. Some years ago, never mind how long precisely, having little or no money in my purse and nothing particular to interest me on shore, I thought I'd sail about a little and see the watery part of the world. It is a way I have of driving off the spleen and regulating the circulation. Whenever I find myself growing grim about the mouth, whenever it is a damp and drizzly November in my soul, whenever I find myself involuntarily pausing before coffin warehouses and bringing up the rear of every funeral I meet, and especially whenever my hypos get such an upper hand of me that it requires strong moral principle to prevent me from deliberately stepping into the street. And methodically knockin' people's hats off, well then, I accounted high time to get to sea as soon as I can. This is my substitute for a pistol and ball. With a philosophical flourish, that were my reference to self-harm, with a philosophical flourish, Cato throws himself upon his sword. I quietly take to ship. There's nothing surprising in this. If they but knew it, all men in their degree, some time or other, cherish very nearly the same feelings towards the ocean with me. Anyway, I went to sea. There was a big whale named Moby Dick, and we tried to kill it. The end.
Elena Passarello: The whole book. Wow. It just flew by.
John Hodgman: I mean, when you read it in a main accent, it's much more readable. Just like, oh, there we go. That's incredible.
Luke Burbank: This is John Hodgman, reading from Moby Dick here on Live Wire. I do actually genuinely enjoy hearing you read it in that accent, and I feel like I could listen to you read the whole book, which is sort of the point, right? You're on chapter 50 or something I last checked?
John Hodgman: Let's see, I just finished, I was just looking at a chapter 49, oh yeah. So I just finish chapter 49 The Gam, which refers to when whaling ships tie up to each other to exchange letters and news when they meet each other in the far ocean. Something I learned about boats. And then my next chapter, if you're interested is, I'm very excited to read, it's called The Town Hose Story. I'm reading it cold as we go. Yeah, I've never read it before, yeah.
Elena Passarello: So you get surprised.
John Hodgman: Oftentimes, I get surprised and very confused. There are long portions of the recording of me reading where you just hear me typing things into Google to find out what they're talking about, the various whaling terminology.
Elena Passarello: There's so much information about whaling in Moby Dick. It's really almost a manual of how to do it, which is sort of surprising when you think of a novel.
John Hodgman: Well, good luck to you. We have many people come up to Maine every summer saying, I just read Moby Dick, shall we go whaling?
Luke Burbank: What's what is it about maine you mean you've written about it so much you obviously have really really take into the place.
John Hodgman: I'll tell you, it's all I can think about and it's hard to stop talking in this accent.
Luke Burbank: What do you love about it so much up there?
John Hodgman: Well you know I spend time on the on the coast of Maine but even on the inland portion of Maine it's quite remote. There are many remote parts of our country in this world but you know Maine is literally the end of the road. I-95 terminates in Maine the oldest Highway and the United States runs from Fort Kent, Maine to Key West. And both of those places share a marginality, like a very end of the earth type place where people who have difficulty with other people thrive. Do you think that describes you? Yes. I mean, I'm reaching that point of my life when it's probably, it's certainly better for me and probably better for anybody that I simply stand silently and contemplate the abyss, whether that is the darkness of the woods in winter or the ocean that wants to kill me in summer. It suits you there. Yeah, I mean it's just like, it's full of eccentric and strange characters and if I had time and didn't care about continuing to live, I would tell you the gossip of the town and you would be shocked. But, um. They would hear me and then I would be put in a wicker man or something. I have a feeling. You know, I've already said too much.
Luke Burbank: Portland Magazine, that is Portland, Maine. [John: The original one.] Our rival. Portland Magazine named you as one of the 10 most intriguing Mainers. How big of an honor was that for you?
John Hodgman: Well, there are only 12 intriguing Mainers. And I'm not even from there, so... Oh, I mean, you know, the other thing about Maine is, you know, it's a little bit wary of people from away, if not a lot a bit wary of people, from away. Until you spend enough time there, proving that you're not a complete. And then slowly over time, you know, I remember when we would go into the post office. The then postmaster would not speak two words to us for year after year after year. And then one day she said, good to see you again. How was your winter or whatever? I'm like, what happened? And the answer is we just stuck around. So yeah, there is such an, there isn't a lure to feeling accepted by a place that yeah, that acts as though it wants to reject you. Yes, that's been Yeah, exactly. It is the nagging state. You know, I was just going to say, have you ever been in a terrible relationship where someone treated you awfully and you just wanted to be near them all the time? Well, that's me in Maine. And it's not just the people, it's the landscape as well, you know. In my Vacationland, I talk about, you know, they called it vacation land in the 19th and early 20th century before people knew what a vacation was. That people hadn't yet discovered that there were beaches of soft sand and waters that were warm to swim in instead of the pebbles like knives and the water that just wants to kill you. You know what I'm like? So it's a love of, it's an, you know, going to Maine is not a pleasant vacation. It's rather an existential test.
Luke Burbank: You as a sort of, I guess, maybe somewhat conflicted booster of Maine.
John Hodgman: I'm not conflicted, I love it and I want to share it with everyone, but you all have to stay away at the same time.
Luke Burbank: Right, okay. Definitely not conflicted. We wanted to ask you some questions about Maine in this little exercise we're calling Our Maine Man. By the way, just for clarification, we are on the radio on Maine Public Radio.
John Hodgman: Bangor, Maine, and the entire Maine public radio system plays Live Wire at 10 pm on Friday nights.
Luke Burbank: Primetime.
John Hodgman: That's right.
Luke Burbank: That's just right during everyone's Friday night commute, 10 pm. [John: That's right.] Some questions about Maine for John Hodgman. The state flower is a pine cone, the white pine cone and tassel. It was adopted in 1895. We're wondering, is it time to revisit that selection for your beloved state of Maine considering a pinecone is not a flower? It's the state flower and it's not a flower.
John Hodgman: Is it not a flower though? I mean, botanically speaking?
Luke Burbank: I'm going to, let's see, for science minds, it's not a flower, a reproductive structure for a gymnosperm. Does that clear it up at all?
John Hodgman: I'm just reading what's in the notes. A rose by any other name.
Elena Passarello: A gymnosperm.
John Hodgman: A gymnastic sperm as sweet. I mean, one thing I learned on this stage earlier this year when Judge John Hodgman performed live here is that an asparagus, botanically speaking, is a flower. That does not mean that your wife wants you to give you a bouquet of asparagus on your anniversary.
Luke Burbank: Yes. How about the fact that, well, this is kind of calling on sort of your legal scholarship. Apparently in Waterville, Maine, it is illegal...
John Hodgman: By the way, I have a degree in literary theory. Not in law.
Luke Burbank: But I like how when you're talking about Judge John Hodgman, you're talking about settled law. In other words, things that have been discussed on the program and then now have become foundational to the sort of jurisprudence of your show. [John: Absolutely.] Which I think is cool. I would take it over some of the actual jurisprudence that is going on in America currently.
John Hodgman: Oh, is there some?
Luke Burbank: Well. Calling on your legal scholarship in Waterville, Maine, it is illegal to blow one's nose in public should this law be expanded statewide.
John Hodgman: Well, there's very little public in Maine. Most of it's private, even in gatherings. No one is looking at you or thinking of you. That's one of the great lessons of Maine too, is all the time you worry about what other people think of you, they're not thinking of your at all. But no, I think people should blow their nose wherever they like. [Luke: Really?] Yeah. Especially in Waterville.
Luke Burbank: Um, there is an online rumor that the state of Maine requires homeowners to remove holiday decorations by January 14th or face a fine. And while this is technically not true, should it be?
John Hodgman: It is not true.
Luke Burbank: It is not true, it's a rumor, but I don't know, with enough legal maneuvering, maybe it could become the law, and would you like to see that in your beloved state of Maine?
John Hodgman: Well, I mean, I understand why the rumor honestly, I understand why the rumor exists because Maine is one of if not the only state where billboards are illegal. [Luke: Wow.] People don't even think about when they drive through Maine why they're like, why is this so beautiful? Like, I mean, it's basic. It's basically New Hampshire with a coast. Why is this? So pretty? Well, it was because there are no advertisements.
Luke Burbank: How will I know which casino to go to prime rib dinner?
John Hodgman: Yeah, and you know, the other thing is, and I've learned this recently, like on your private property, you can keep political signs up, but there are no political signs allowed in non, like after electoral season, all political signs have to come down. On your private property, not so, but like in median strips and other sorts of things. And honestly, for a long time, there were no political science at all because the people in Maine really don't care what anyone else thinks. So it's like, And that's the way it should be, like everyone's just themselves and they let everyone else be and they're not trying to now that's a little bit less so but for a long time it's like you do your thing and I'll do my thing and if you get stuck in a ditch I'll help you out but otherwise let's not talk about it, you know, so that's good. But in terms of bringing down holiday decorations, yeah, January 14th, yeah get them down.
Luke Burbank: Okay. In Portland, Maine, the original one. It is unlawful to tickle a woman's chin with a feather duster. What do you think the minimum sentencing guidelines should be on this? Mandatory minimum.
John Hodgman: Well, I know from personal experience that this is enforced very strictly. No, I would never. I would Never. Uh, that's an interesting one.
Luke Burbank: Yeah, I mean, honestly, I can agree with that law. We shouldn't be tickling anyone with a feather duster who did not request
John Hodgman: Well, you know, one of the pieces of set of law of the court of Judge John Hodgman is if it's not fun for everyone, it's not fun at all. So, yeah, you should not be violating other people's space and chins.
Elena Passarello: And it's a feather duster, it's not a feather, like if you just had a loose feather, it's the cleaning implement that you're not allowed to tickle a woman under the chin with.
John Hodgman: Where, I mean, look, I don't care for feather dusters, but if you wanted to take a Dobie sponge and scrub my face all over, to me, that's very erotic. But that's not you necessarily.
Luke Burbank: Speaking of your face, you've been keeping us all updated on the internet about your beard that you've been growing. How's it going?
John Hodgman: Well, I grew a beard some years ago in order to make sure the world knew that I was no longer ever going to procreate, that I no longer was sexually available, that my children are grown, my genetic role in life is over and everyone can leave me alone.
Luke Burbank: Throw a Hartford Whalers hat on and call it good.
John Hodgman: But then I recently had to shave it off for a super secret project that I can't tell you about. But you know, when I grew my beard, you know every, I wrote about this in Vacationland, that every person who can grow a beard needs to do it at least once, because they want to see the secret person who's lurking follicularly inside their face. Who's going to come out? Who do you become when you grow that beard? And I realized, well, obviously lurking inside of me is the... Human Resources Manager for the Church of Satan. And when I shaved it, it had been so long since I had been clean shaven, when I shaved it off, I was like, oh, it's you again. That weird baby man.
Luke Burbank: So you're returning to Church of Satan status, one day at a time.
John Hodgman: As fast as I'm able to, I mean everyone can tell that this beard is horribly patchy and terrible.
Luke Burbank: Uh... I think it looks lustrous and full.
John Hodgman: Well. [Luke: And luxurious.] Hey, you know what? This is radio. We can say whatever we want.
Luke Burbank: Yes we can.
Elena Passarello: It looks like your chin is being tickled by a feather dust.
John Hodgman: Yes, that's right. They call it the feather duster. My beard is called the feather duster
Luke Burbank: All right, that's John Hodgman here on Live Wire, everybody. John, thank you so much.
John Hodgman: Thank you very much.
Luke Burbank:That was the one and only John Hodgman right here on Live Wire. You can find John, of course, over at his hit podcast, Judge John Hodgman, or you can follow him on Substack like I am, where he is continuing to read the book Moby Dick chapter by chapter. And again, it's oddly mesmerizing with his main accent. So check him out over there. Hey there listeners, wanted to let you know that we will be back at the Alberta Rose Theatre on March 19th with the hilarious comedian and internet sensation, Atsuko Okatsuka. We'll also talk to Daisy Hernández about her new book and we will hear some music from one of our very favorites, the folk artist, Laura Gibson. You can get tickets and more information at LiveWireRadio.org and we'll see you March 19. You're tuned to Live Wire. Let's get our musical guest on over here this week, shall we? She is the lead singer of a world renowned little orchestra you might've heard of called Pink Martini. She's also the winner of the Ella Fitzgerald Prize at the Montreal International Jazz Festival, which is a high honor. And she's released albums as a solo artist. Now of late, she's been taking a little sabbatical from her touring schedule with Pink Martina and she's enjoying life at home. After years of globetrotting. This is China Forbes, who joined us for a little chat and then some music. This all happened at the Laurelhurst Club in Portland, Oregon. Take a listen. China, thank you so much for doing this. It's a big honor for us to have you here.
China Forbes: I'm so touched that you asked.
Luke Burbank: Well, because I know that you are technically supposed to be on sabbatical right now.
China Forbes: I am like my sabbatical is so busy.
Luke Burbank: Yeah. What went into the kind of thought process on that to take a little step away from Pink Martini?
China Forbes: It was sort of a round number. I had been doing it for 30 years. And my son is now 16. He's about to turn 17. And I just felt like the years were slipping by. I was missing half of my time with him. And I didn't want to look up and find that he had gone to college. And I had missed the whole thing.
Luke Burbank: See, that was my plan with my daughter. Look up one day and find out she'd gone to college. Pretty good outcome.
China Forbes: It was so easy. How did that happen? So yeah, I made the decision. I'm so glad I made this decision because it's already working out so well. We have dinner together and he opens up to me about his life in a way that he never did before.
Luke Burbank: Do you think that's based on knowing that you're not jetting off to somewhere to have to perform?
China Forbes: Kind of, I think we were always, you know, in, like, alert mode, like I'm just coming back or I'm about to leave and there was always something coming and now I'm, it's very, it is very calm now, I'm always there. I'm doing the potted plant thing that they say you're supposed to do.
Luke Burbank: Which is what? Because I've had zero success historically.
China Forbes: Not with your, like, if you don't have to have a green thumb with your plants, but you're supposed to act like a potted plant and just plop yourself down there.
Luke Burbank: Really?
Elena Passarello: In order to be a good parent. [China: I think so.] Or one way to be a parent.
China Forbes: For teenagers, yeah. That's what they say.
Elena Passarello: Just be in the room.
Luke Burbank: Just get in a corner and go.
China Forbes: They say it.
Luke Burbank: And wait.
Elena Passarello: J st oxygenate.
Luke Burbank: Until they approach you.
China Forbes: But don't be a cactus.
Luke Burbank: Oh, okay. Maybe that was my problem.
China Forbes: Like a fern. I'm a fern. I am just a fern.
Luke Burbank: Let's talk about the solo album that you released. What was it like to create that album versus the way that like a Pink Martini record gets created?
China Forbes: Well, a Pink Martini record is created in more of sort of a swirling chaos of many people. And my album was like being alone in a room most of the time.
Luke Burbank: That sounds like boundaries. You are ready to just do your thing.
China Forbes: Dance in my alone time. But a Pink Martini album is sort of in that swirling chaos, there's swirling hearts, there's lots of orchestration, there's just so much beauty, you know? And my album is more just like my personal stories and my heart is in that album in a way that's different. And it's very open album. I talk about divorce, you can relate, right?
Luke Burbank: Yes, I can. We weren't recording that part where I talked about my divorces, but now America knows.
China Forbes: Sorry. Sorry, America. Yeah, I mean, so my divorces, I talk about motherhood. I talk mental health and middle age. And it's just like I got to talk about everything.
Luke Burbank: Before anybody was here at the Laurelhurst Club today, you got here and you were, I think, maybe just warming up and testing out the piano and stuff like that. And you were just playing, kind of singing along, and people just started coming to the foot of the stage like cartoon characters from a Disney movie.
Elena Passarello: Like little forest animals coming this way.
Luke Burbank: There was a chipmunk sitting on that speaker right there. Like, you were, you know, I don't know, Snow White or something, like what, like, is that like a superpower for you that you, I mean, do you like, are you just used to being able to sort of make music in that way that it really draws people in? Like, not everybody has that ability.
China Forbes: I definitely, I've always done it. I mean, I really, when I was eight years old, I knew that I was going to be a singer. And I didn't go about becoming a child performer, but I just knew that one day I would be a singer. And I idolized Donna Summer, and that's how I learned to sing, by imitating her. And I wish I had.
Luke Burbank: That's a high bar.
China Forbes: I didn't quite make it to like perfectly imitating her but you know it was helpful to get started you know and just to sort of look at her. I mean back when you looked at the jacket of the LP and you fantasized about wearing those dresses and the glittery eyeshadow and everything so I had a whole you know fantasy life around that.
Luke Burbank: This is Live Wire. We're talking to China Forbes, the vocalist and lead singer of Pink Martini. We've got to take a very short break, but do not go anywhere. When we come back, you are going to hear an original song from China Forbes that you do not want to miss. I've already heard it and I can tell you, it's incredible. So stay with us, more Live Wire in a moment. Welcome back to Live Wire from PRX, I'm Luke Burbank. Okay, before we get to our musical performance from China Forbes, from Pink Martini, a little preview of what we are doing on the show next week, we're gonna be talking to bestselling author and beloved misfit, that's her term, Lidia Yuknavitch about her latest book, it's called Reading the Waves. It's kind of a memoir, but it's also kind of not. She describes it as more of a sort of exploration of memory. Which she'll explain exactly what she means by that. Then we're gonna hear from TV writer, Felipe Torres Medina about his book, America, Let Me In: A Choose Your Immigration Story. It kind of peels back the layers of how insanely complicated the US immigration system is. It's all told through this choose your own adventure format. Remember those books from when you were a kid? Then we are gonna round things out with a performance from Seattleite and indie rocker royalty, Dave Bazan. A.k.a. Pedro the Lion. So we're gonna have quite the show next week. Do not miss it. In the meantime, this week, we're in the midst of listening to a chat with China Forbes, lead singer of Pink Martini and solo artist of great renown in her own right. We're gonna jump back into that conversation and then we're going to hear some music from China. This was all recorded live at the Laurelhurst Club in Portland, Oregon. Another, like- Interesting element of your life is that you know your sister made a whole movie about your childhood infinitely polar bear which is an incredible film by the way But of course with movies there's always the cinematic aspect of it There's the part that is me if it's a movie that's a biopic There's a parts that resemble real life and the parts that resembles something that works better for the film I'm wondering what that was like for you to sort of be portrayed on film that way.
China Forbes: That's so funny that you should ask because I'm still upset about that.
Luke Burbank: I didn't know that, but I'm not mad that there's a little drama happening here on the show.
China Forbes: There's a scene, my sister wrote and directed the movie, and her character has something happen in a scene that actually happened to me. But it worked better for the screenplay, for it to be her character.
Luke Burbank: So in other words, she knew that it didn't happen to her, but for the filmmaking aspect of it, it made more sense for it to be her character. What was that conversation like? Or did you know in advance, or did you find out in the movie theater like everybody else?
China Forbes: I think I found out in the movie theater because I feel like I would have said something. But maybe I was just I was also so supportive of her that I may have just been like, oh, it's hard to write a screenplay. You got to just let her do what she's doing, you know.
Elena Passarello: Well, solo album next. [Luke: Yeah, exactly.] Just throw a verse in there that involves her prom date.
Luke Burbank: China Forbes correcting the record. Actually, that would be a good name. Correcting the record, get it? Well again, thank you so much for being here and thank you for being so, like, just generous and gracious with our show over the years.
China Forbes: We love Live Wire, what can you say?
Luke Burbank: China Forbes, right here on Live Wire.
China Forbes: I released a solo album a couple of years ago, and I'm gonna play a song from that album. This is a song that is really for everybody. I think everybody can relate to these words.
China Forbes: [China Forbes performs "Full Circle"]
Luke Burbank: That was China Forbes here on Live Wire performing her song Full Circle that was recorded live at the Laurelhurst Club in Portland, Oregon. All right, that is going to do it for this week's episode of Live Wire. A huge thanks to our guests, John Hodgman and China Forbes, as well as many thank yous to the wonderful folks over at the Laurelhurst Club in Portland.
Elena Passarello: Laura Hadden is our executive producer, Heather de Michele is our Executive Director, and Melanie Sevcenko is our Producer and Editor. Eben Hoffer is our Technical Director, Tré Hester is our Assistant Editor, Valentine Keck is our Operations Manager, and Ashley Park is our Marketing Manager.
Luke Burbank: Our House Sound is by D. Neil Blake and our house band is Sam Pinkerton, Ayal Alves, Ethan Fox Tucker and A. Walker Spring who also composes our music. This show was mixed by Eben Hoffer and Tré Hester.
Elena Passarello: Additional funding provided by the James F. And Marion L. Miller Foundation. Live Wire was created by Robyn Tenenbaum and Kate Sokoloff.
Luke Burbank: This week, we'd like to thank members Jane Blakemore of Austin, Texas, and Joy Rothschild of Portland, Oregon. For more information about our show or how you can listen to our podcast, head on over to LiveWireRadio.org. I'm Luke Burbank for Elena Passarello and the whole Live Wire team. Thank you for listening, and we will see you next week.
PRX.
Staff Credits
Laura Hadden is our Executive Producer, Heather de Michele is our Executive Director, and our Producer and Editor is Melanie Sevcenko. Eben Hoffer is our Technical Director. Tré Hester is our Assistant Editor. Valentine Keck is our Operations Manager, Ashley Park is our Marketing Manager, and Andrea Castro-Martinez is our Marketing Associate. Our house sound is by D. Neil Blake. Our house band is Sam Pinkerton, Ayal Alvez, Ethan Fox Tucker, and A. Walker Spring, who also composes our music. This show was mixed by Eben Hoffer. Special thanks this episode to The Laurelhurst Club. Additional funding provided by The James F. and Marion L. Miller Foundation. Live Wire was created by Robyn Tenenbaum and Kate Sokoloff. This week, we'd like to thank members Jane Blakemore of Austin, TX and Joy Rothschild of Portland, OR.
