Episode 682

Sam Sanders, Sandi DuBowski, and The Lowest Pair

Radio host and podcaster Sam Sanders makes the case for the three TV shows that he believes changed culture; filmmaker Sandi DuBowski discusses his documentary Sabbath Queen, which follows Rabbi Amichai Lau-Lavie over two decades as he grapples with orthodoxy, interfaith marriage, and his drag persona; and indie folk duo The Lowest Pair perform "Fall on My Knees"... a song which they once performed for 45 minutes at a medical marijuana market.

Sam Sanders

Co-Host of The Sam Sanders Show

Sam Sanders is an award-winning reporter, radio host, and podcaster. He hosted Vulture's hit show Into It and was a founding creator and host of NPR's It's Been a Minute as well as NPR Politics. Currently, he co-hosts Vibe Check from SiriusXM and The Sam Sanders Show, which is a weekly one-hour KCRW program exploring entertainment obsessions: TV, movies, music, celebrities, internet culture, and the creatives behind it all. Sanders has interviewed luminaries from Jennifer Lopez to Maya Rudolph, Beto O'Rourke, and Malcolm Gladwell. His writing appears in New York Magazine, Politico Magazine, and The Washington Post.

Instagram • The Sam Sanders Show on KCRW

Sandi DuBowski

Director and Film Producer

Sandi Simcha DuBowski is a Brooklyn-born director and filmmaker whose work delves into the intersection of LGBTQIA+ rights and religion. He was raised in Conservative Juadaism. Sandi’s acclaimed work has been screened at Sundance, Berlin, Tribeca, Toronto, and theatrically released in over 150 cities. His 2001 documentary Trembling Before G-d spurred a powerful movement, but it turns out that was only the beginning of his journey documenting queerness in orthodoxy. Sabbath Queen is his most recent film that follows Rabbi Amichai Lau-Lavie, who is not only the dynastic heir of 39 generations of Orthodox rabbis—but also a drag queen, gay man, and father, as he rebels against and reconciles with his faith trying to establish a more accepting congregation.

Website • Instagram

The Lowest Pair

Folk Duo

Kendl Winter and Palmer T. Lee of The Lowest Pair prove that a simple collaboration of friends can result in music that is as organic as it is undeniable. Their 2022 record Horse Camp leans towards each member’s string band roots and showcases songwriting from both of them that came out of pandemic times. Paste Magazine calls them “one of the best under-rated Americana duos today,” which is also why they have established themselves as a Live Wire favorite. They just released a new record in 2024 for Kendl called Banjo Mantras.

Website • Instagram

Show Notes

Best News

• Elena’s story: “Meet the retiree who realized his dream of joining the LSU marching band as a 66-year-old freshman”

• Luke’s story: “29-yo Becomes First Woman to Cross U.S. on a Skateboard–Honoring Stepfather Whose Ashes Were Carried in a Necklace”

Sam Sanders

• In relation to the topic of monoculture, Sam says that if there were only three shows, he would pick: I Love Lucy, HBO’s Girls, and In Living Color. 

• The show Fresh Prince of Bel Air is also discussed.

• Sam talks about his invite to judge at the upcoming Tribeca Film Festival.

• Luke references the song “Low” by Flo Rida.

Live Wire Listener Question

• What's one TV show you think should be mandatory viewing?

  Lisa’s answer: Somebody, Somewhere

  Eric’s answer: Andor

  Talia’s answer: The Real Housewives franchise

Sandi DuBowski

• Luke talks to Sandi about his latest film, Sabbath Queen (2024), which documents a 21-year journey of Rabbi Amichai Lau-Lavie, as he reckons with his legacy as the descendent of 28 generations of Orthodox Rabbis and his contemporary identity as a queer person, rebel, and drag-performer.

• Sandi tells us that he first met Rabbi Lau-Lavie while filming an earlier documentary about queerness and orthodoxy, Trembling Before G-d (2001).

The Lowest Pair

• The Lowest Pair consists of banjoists Kendl Winter and Palmer T. Lee.

• The duo performs “Fall on my Knees” from their album I Reckon I’m Fixin’ on Kickin’ round to Pick a Little.

• Kendl’s latest record is Banjo Mantras (2024).

Staff Credits

Laura Hadden is our Executive Producer, Heather De Michele is our Executive Director, and our Producer and Editor is Melanie Sevcenko. Haziq Bin Ahmad Farid is our Assistant Editor, our house sound is by D. Neil Blake, and Eben Hoffer is our Technical Director. Support this episode comes from Nest Royster. Valentine Keck is our Operations Manager, Ashley Park is our Marketing Manager, Tiffany Nguyen is our Graphic Design and Marketing Intern, and Ezra Veenstra runs our Front of House. Teja Pallikonda is our Production Fellow. Our house band is Ethan Fox Tucker, Sam Tucker, Sam Pinkerton, Ayal Alvez, Ben Grace, and A Walker Spring, who also composes our music. This episode was mixed by Eben Hoffer and Haziq Bin Ahmad Farid. Additional funding provided by the City of Portland's Office of Arts and Culture. Live Wire was created by Robin Tenenbaum and Kate Sokoloff. This week, we'd like to thank member Kolieha Bush of Eagle Creek, Oregon, and Alena Vazquez of Portland, Oregon.

• Full Transcript

  Elena Passarello: From PRX, it's Live Wire. This week, podcaster Sam Sanders. 

  Sam Sanders: Ten years ago when I began podcasting, you were just up against other podcasters, and now I have to compete with short-form ASMR rug deep cleaning videos. 

  Elena Passarello: Filmmaker Sandi DuBowski. 

  Sandi Dubowski:Queer people change people, you know? That's what we do. Like we come from that place of the margin and we have power. 

  Elena Passarello: With music from The Lowest Pair and our fabulous house band. I'm your announcer, Elena Passarello, and now, the host of Live Wire, Luke Burbank! 

  Luke Burbank: Thank you so much, Elena Passarello. Thanks to everyone for tuning in from all over the United States of America. We have a really fun, informative show for you this week. Um, but of course we got to kick things off like we always do with the best news we heard all week. This is our little reminder that there is, in fact, good news happening out there in the world. You just have to look for it. Also, sometimes you have to play hurt, as they say. You have to broadcast through, feeling a little under the weather, which is what Elena Passarello is doing this week. Thank you. Thank you for your commitment to the LiveWire Project. What is the best news that you heard all week? 

  Elena Passarello: I mean, it might be because I'm all hopped up on cold medicine, but I cannot tell this story without bursting into tears. So just be forewarned. It's just sweet. It is a happy sweet story. And it's in one of my favorite states in the union, Louisiana. It involves a guy named Kent Broussard, who is a 66 year old, I think Louisiana native definitely grew up in close proximity to Tiger Stadium. 

  Luke Burbank: Oh sure, where LSU plays. 

  Elena Passarello: That's right. Went to LSU games ever since he was a little kid. Loved the pageantry, especially loved the band. Was a musician, played the tuba and the sousaphone in school and ended up going to Southeast Louisiana University, which does not have a marching band, but he played in like the symphonic band, got two degrees, became an accountant, retired in his early 60s, seems to have done very well for himself. So when he retired in 2023, he decided to take a long journey to make himself eligible to play in the LSU Tiger Band. It was not an easy task. He's doing yard work in a weighted vest. He's running 20 miles a week. He's getting swole. He's working with a music teacher who's teaching him not just how to play the tuba and the sousaphone again because he had to relearn how to read music and all that, but how to march with a musical instrument. This is five years of work. And then, of course, his long-suffering wife was like, and then he practiced the tubo, marching up and down the neighborhood, and the neighbors were sort of into it. Everyone was so supportive though. His own daughter got in touch with the band program at LSU to see if there was a pathway into him to be able to audition and there was. So at 66 years old, Ken Broussard enrolled as a non-traditional freshman at LSU, taking classes, 12 credits, and went to the whole summer band camp gauntlet training. And a couple of weeks ago. They announced, you know, which folks made the cut and were gonna be starting members of the band. And he made it. Unbelievable. I know! And on September 6th, in the game against Louisiana Tech, he hit the field as the oldest member of the golden band from tiger land on the tuba. He was rocking the Jumbotron. People were weeping. 

  Luke Burbank: I haven't thought about that, but you're absolutely right. Like you see those clips of the football players hitting the tackling sled and sweating out pure Gatorade and you do not think about the marching band folks that are going through something that's arguably as physically challenging in the same, you know, whether situation and to be doing all of that at the age that our guy was doing that, that is truly incredible. 

  Elena Passarello: In double-knit polyester while holding, like, a 70-pound instrument. I don't know how much it weighs. But I just want to close on a great quote that Kent said. He said, you know what? People retire, but dreams don't. So he made it happen, and the whole world is proud of him. 

  Luke Burbank: The best news that I heard all week is also an example of some incredible, I guess you could say physical fitness. It involves a woman named Brooke Johnson. Now, Brooke Johnson, uh, was very close in life with her stepfather, a guy named Roger. And, uh Roger, unfortunately, a few years ago was involved in an accident where he had, um, part of his spine was broken and he lost his mobility. Um, he was in a wheelchair and, uh. Brooke is apparently really into skateboarding and she had always talked with her stepdad Roger about this idea of trying to skateboard across America. And the idea at the time was that they were gonna have Roger in some kind of like a wheelchair or a wheeled device and she was gonna skateboard and he was gonna wheel and they were going to kind of go across the country. Interestingly enough, Roger seemed more confident about this whole situation than Brooke did. She was like, apparently she kept saying, Roger, it's a really big country. 

  Elena Passarello: She's not wrong. 

  Luke Burbank: Understatement of the year. And then Roger was like, yeah, you can do it. Well, unfortunately, Roger ended up passing away. But this dream of Brooks skateboarding across America, by the way becoming the first woman to ever do this, [Elena: Woah.] did not die. In fact, Rogers passing only kind of increased her motivation to do this. And so not that long ago, she set out she started off in Santa Monica, California. And the plan was to skateboard. All the way across the country, 3,226 miles. And I was watching this unfold kind of in real time on TikTok, which you don't understand about skateboarding across America as Brooke Johnson did is how much of America is uphill? And then you watch somebody out there skateboarding up a mountain pass in like the Southwest somewhere. And I seriously like watching this Brooke Johnson do this project and I just thought, give up. You cannot do this. This is way too much for one person to try to do. She did not give up Elena. In fact, she raised all of this money for this foundation that helps people who have sustained spinal injuries. She raised like over $50,000 for this project. She also had this incredible moment. This was like something out of a movie where she was somewhere in I think about the middle of the country and it was a particularly rough day. The weather was terrible. It was mountanious in this. You know, people do this from time to time. If you have somebody in your life that's passed away, you maybe have voicemail messages from them or other kind of digital ephemera. And like, when she was at her closest to giving up, she randomly finds this voicemail from Roger that says, everything's gonna be fine. We can get through this. And she listens to this voicemail message on the day that she was her closest to giving up and of course she didn't give up. She pushed on through, made it all the way out to Virginia Beach, Virginia. By the way, she had Roger's ashes with her on this whole journey. He took the trip too. He did. It turns out. And so Brooke Johnson and Roge, resting in peace, and doing this incredible thing and raising all this money and showing really and truly that we are incredibly powerful as human beings. When we put our mind to stuff. That is the best news that I heard this week. All right, let's get to our first guest. He is an award winning reporter, radio host, podcaster. He founded the hit NPR show. It's been a minute. These days. He hosts the Sam Sanders show from KCRW as well as vibe check from Sirius XM. This is our conversation with Sam Sanders who joined us live at the Alberta Rose Theater in Portland, Oregon. You are the host of The Sam Sander Show, which you record through KCRW. And you put out this great newsletter that I love. Because you always bring up these really, like again for a person like me who consumes a lot of pop culture, these very interesting ideas. Of course they connect up with larger ideas as well. 

  Sam Sanders: You're really nice, I just call them hot takes. 

  Luke Burbank: But one of the things that came up on the show and in the newsletter recently was this idea that we don't have a monoculture anymore, that there used to be three major TV networks and a finite number of shows and movies and we sort of had to watch them and then talk about them together. 

  Sam Sanders: Everyone I went to school with watched The Fresh Prince of Bel-Air. Yes. And that's what you did, and you talked about it. And when they changed Aunt Viv from dark-skinned Aunt Viv to light-skinned Aunt Viv, we all talked about. And now you find a show, you gotta see which of your friends has the same streaming app. You gotta convince them to watch it. You gotta say, no way, give it three or four episodes before it heats up. Right. Then they might watch it six months later, and then you've moved on. It's very hard now. I want more things that everyone is consuming together. 

  Luke Burbank: Well, the question that was posed was, if there were only three TV shows, what would they be? And yours were, I Love Lucy, the show Girls, and In Living Color. Why did you pick? It's a solid list. It's solid list! Isn't that a good list? 

  Elena Passarello: That is good! 

  Sam Sanders: I subscribe to my newsletter for more takes like these. I'll tell you why for each one. I think the most universally paddable format of television and the one that could restore monoculture to America is the sitcom. Sitcom is the best kind of TV because it doesn't matter if you know what the hell is going on. You can just start watching. Like, I tell folks, the backstory to The Fresh Prince of Bel-Air is the theme song. 

  Luke Burbank: Yeah. 

  Sam Sanders: And then you're in it. So, if for me, sitcoms are the pinnacle of monoculture television, the pinnicle of sitcom is probably I Love Lucy. Because, come on. So, that's one. And then, two, I picked Girls because more than any show that I've watched in the last 15 years, all of them were in on the joke. They knew they were awful. They knew the characters were awful, and they committed to the bit for six seasons. And they were so good at committing, you still think they're awful in real life. Don't you? They're not! 

  Luke Burbank: I'm wishing good things for Hannah. 

  Sam Sanders: Yes, always, always. But like you remember that first pilot episode of Girls on HBO. Lena Dunham's character, Hannah Horvath, screams either to a man or a mirror or somebody or something, and she goes, I'm the voice of a generation. She got months of bad press coverage of folks being like, how dare Lena Dunhum call herself the voice a generation? And it's like, you don't get it. [Elena: Right, yeah.] This is a bit. And so what I love about girls is that like, even in the midst of that, they didn't stop the bit. So the very end, they were obnoxious. 

  Elena Passarello: That's a great point. 

  Luke Burbank: And let's talk in Living Color. 

  Sam Sanders: So, this is my hottest, hottest theory. Pop culture as we know it doesn't exist without Living Color, you ready? 

  Elena Passarello: Yeah. Mm-hmm. 

  Sam Sanders: Buckle up. I don't have jokes, but I got a lore. The Super Bowl halftime show, as we know it, is a big deal. The halftime show for the biggest game in the world every year, Super Bowl half-time show epic. For the first decade or two of the Super Bowl, the halfttime show was like a marching band or like Disney characters dancing or whatever. And, um, Fox realized that they had an opening to compete against the Super Bowl during the halftime show because it was so bad. And one year, they had a In Living Color halftimes special. And Living Color was, I think, SNL, but 90s, blacker... funnier. Anyhoo! 

  Luke Burbank: Yeah, we all watched SNL and In Living Color, but we were all doing like Homie the Clown and Fire Marshall Bill. We were all walking around at Hamilton Middle School the next day. We're quoting In Living Color on Monday, not quoting Saturday Night Live. 

  Sam Sanders: Exactly. So this is, sometime in the 90s, they're like, we'll do the In Living Color halftime special to compete with the big game. The ratings for that, for their special beat the actual halftime show. So the next year, who do they get for the actual halftime show? Michael Jackson. [Luke: Wow.] There's no halftine show as we know it without In Living Color. And as soon as the halfttime show becomes a big deal, it changes the world of pop culture. We don't have stadium tour culture as we know it now without the big halftime show. 

  Elena Passarello: Huh. 

  Sam Sanders: So, anyhoo, In Living Color explains a large part of how pop culture works right now. Also, the entire Wayans family. Put them on Mount Rushmore. I've said this before. Yes. All of them. I love them. And like what it gave us, think about the stars that came out of In Living Color besides the Wayans. Jim Carrey, Jamie Foxx, we don't have- [Luke: J-Lo.] Oh yeah, Rosie Perez. Rosie Perez, yeah. Also Fly Girl. We don't the pop culture canon that we know and love today without that show. 

  Luke Burbank: I agree with that. I co-sign that take. 

  Sam Sanders: Thank you. 

  Elena Passarello: Good take. 

  Luke Burbank: We do need to take a very quick break, so let's just get that out of the way right now. This is LiveWire Radio from PRX. We're talking to Sam Sanders, who also has a show distributed by PRX, The Sam Sanders Show from KCRW, back with much more Live Wire in just a moment. Welcome back to Live Wire. From PRX, we are at the Alberta Rose Theater in Portland, Oregon this week. We're talking to Sam Sanders a host of the Sam Sanders Show and one of the hosts of Vibe Check. Another thing you've been talking about lately is that you think maybe we've hit peak stadium concert, your Beyonce stuff, your Taylor Swift stuff, these big productions that were setting all kinds of records. But now, do you feel like we've kind of peaked with that? 

  Sam Sanders: Oh yeah. Who in here has been to see a mega watt pop star in the stadium at a stadium show? 

  Luke Burbank: Okay, they mostly go to LiveWire honestly. 

  Sam Sanders: Who in here would rather enjoy seeing that artist in a small, intimate venue? [Elena: Me!] That's all I'm saying. I get into this fight so much because I'm a big Beyoncé fan and I only hang out with other Beyoncé fans. And I went to go see her last tour, Renaissance, four times. Twice in the UK, twice in LA. Like, I loved it. I thought it was one of the greatest live shows I've ever seen. And I think that every 25 years, we get a pop star who was just there. It was Michael, and now it's Beyoncé. And that's it. Like, will not argue that point. But I had this epiphany. After seeing Renaissance four times and just like having my wig blown off, I'm still bald from it, as you can see. I go to the Cowboy Carter tour and I'm like, hm, I've seen this. And at one point, the friend I was there with, it was his first Beyonce show. And I'm, like, you're still gonna be impressed. But at one points, she starts to sing opera because one of the songs on the album ends with her singing opera. And my friend leans over to me and he goes. Sam, I don't know if I can say this, but it's so great that she's singing opera, but I think I would rather see Beyonce sing opera in an opera hall. And I said, yeah, it's time. We did it. Pink is doing Cirque du Soleil flips. [Luke: Oh boy.] Taylor Swift is disappearing and changing clothes every three minutes. Beyonce was in like an old Corvette soaring through the sky. All of them excel at these feats, but I get it. [Luke: Yeah.] What I want for an artist like Beyonce or any of these big stars like throw it back to like unplugged remember MTV unplugged? My favorite MTV unplug is Nirvana because when Nirvana Walks into the stage of unplugged they're doing the rock that they're known for. Once they do their unplugged set all the critics say oh their next iteration could be folk music They could do this Like, the smaller, more intimate venue opens up these artists to new musical possibilities. 

  Luke Burbank: Well, you know what the new version of that is, is sort of Tiny Desk. 

  Sam Sanders: But I can't go to that. 

  Luke Burbank: Well, I know. Listen. 

  Sam Sanders: I want one that I can go to. 

  Luke Burbank: That's fair. That's fair. We're talking to Sam Sanders here on Live Wire this week from the Sam Sanders Show from KCRW also, Vibe Check, and newly minted Tribeca Film Festival Judge podcast division. I saw this on Instagram. You had a personal invite from Bob DeNiro. 

  Sam Sanders: Girl, maybe, maybe, we'll see, let me tell you something. 

  Luke Burbank: To judge at the- [Elena: What!]

  Sam Sanders: Okay, okay, let me set this up because the older I get the more I realize given enough time all media becomes all other media this is just the way of the world and because of this the Tribeca Film Festival now has a podcast division bless it, fine with it, support it. Last year I was up there to do some podcast stuff with them, and this year, one of the organizers of the audio festival portion of Tribeca was like, you wanna be a judge? And I made the Instagram post seem very romantic and Robert De Niro sent me a letter. Here's how it really happened. Davey text me, he's like, would you do this for us? And I was like oh my God, it's unpaid labor but I like you and whatever, fine. And he's okay, I'll email you the official invite and I don't know what I did wrong but whatever email address I told him. It kept bouncing back. So he's like, we need to send you the official whatever letter, and I was just like, bro, just send me a screen grab of the text, of the email. Send me a green grab, because if the email's not going through, it's whatever. So my official invite letter was a text of a screen grab of an email of someone writing Robert De Niro says thanks. 

  Luke Burbank: That's close enough for me. [Sam: Okay, okay.] I guess, I guess what I'm also curious about is even in you when you're saying, because of course Tribeca Film Festival has a podcast category now, we are podcasters and yet I feel like the word podcaster makes me cringe so hard. 

  Sam Sanders: I've stopped saying it a lot. For a while I was like people like what do you do, and I was like, I'm a podcaster. Now I say, I work in media. I'm a journalist. 

  Luke Burbank: Have we reached, much like stadium concerts, have we reached peak podcasts? 

  Sam Sanders: You know, for the last several years, I've been getting some version of this question, which is really the question, are there too many podcasts? [Luke: Uh-huh.] You know what I'm saying? 

  Luke Burbank: And that was the core of my question. 

  Sam Sanders: Yeah, yeah. Listen, my answer whenever there's a question of like too much competition, this, that. It's like no one ever says, uhh too many books. No one ever says, there's too many movies. There are too many shows on streaming. Stop. Enough. But, yeah, the more the merrier. 

  Luke Burbank: It's the abundance mindset, right? 

  Sam Sanders: That's right. We're in fricking video podcast land now. I gotta do the YouTubes, man. 

  Luke Burbank: Yeah, you do that though, and they're great. 

  Sam Sanders: Ah, well, tell people to watch them. [Luke: But when-] It's hard though, because we did not come into this industry of audio [Luke: No.] to be on camera. 

  Luke Burbank: Nobody saw me and said like, put that guy on TV. 

  Sam Sanders: And now- As soon as you start to do it, I have a newfound respect for people who do the on-camera stuff for a living. Because things that you never used to think about, all of a sudden you go to sleep at night thinking about those things. I've never thought about my eyebrows. Until making YouTube videos. I have a lot of eyebrow products now. And I didn't bring my eyebrow products with me, so I'm wearing glasses tonight to cover my eyebrows. This is Youtube has done to me. 

  Luke Burbank: Yes. It's also, and I mean, it's all content and I have respect for anybody making something that people want to watch, but it's weird to work on something like this where so many talented people put their creativity into this. And if we were to put this on the internet, it would absolutely not chart anywhere near someone in their car who just went on a bad date and is talking into their cell phone. [Elena: Yes.] Like, how do you compete with that? 

  Sam Sanders: Yeah, yeah, well, and then it's like what's loud is that like you never even know like what going to pop. [Luke: Yes.] So we'll do the YouTube video of the show and then the social team will pull little small clips to like put up to go on Instagram, TikTok, whatever, and I'll always be like, you need to take the most traumatic part of the conversation of me and this author who went really deep on what it means to be alive. And then that one does, yep. And then last week though, we had a comedian who's great, check out his YouTube special, Zach Zimmerman. He had a hot take that vampire movies can predict recessions. 

  Elena Passarello: Ahhhhhh…

  Luke Burbank: This was a great episode all the way through with recession indicators…

  Sam Sanders: But that little, that little minute long chunk of him talking about that, it got like a million views on instagram. [Elena: Wow.] Don't clap. We ain't getting money from it. It's not monetized. And then you're like, well, maybe this will convince people to then go to another app to watch a longer version of this video, please? I don't know. I don't know. 

  Luke Burbank: For my other podcast, we were talking and we were trying to figure out the some of the specific lyrics of the Flo Rida song, 'apple bottom jeans with the boots, with the fur,' we're trying to figure out- [Sam: Trying to figure out the lyrics?] If the boots had the fur or she had the boots and she was wearing fur. And we were- [Sam: What?] Apple bottom jeans. 

  Sam Sanders: It's the boots with the fur. [Elena: Yeah.] I was alive in that time. 

  Luke Burbank: Do you think? 

  Elena Passarello: So she's wearing boots and a fur. 

  Sam Sanders: No, not in the clurb. 

  Luke Burbank: This is what I'm talking about. [Elena: And you would wear the boots with the fur, yeah.] This is what I'm talking about. 

  Sam Sanders: It's the fur line boots. 

  Luke Burbank: This was the-. 

  Elena Passarello: Someone wears the fur to the club. 

  Luke Burbank:  This was the debate, and listen, fam. We're all fam in this clerb. [Elena: That's right.]My point is that video on Instagram got millions and millions of views of me and this other guy who looks like me, trying to figure out if it's 'apple bottom jeans with the boots, with the fur, or with the fur.' [Sam: Oh yeah.] It's like, how do you win in this media landscape? 

  Sam Sanders: And then it's like, also, you have to understand... That you are now in this world of like video on your phone and short video on your phone. You're competing against, everything ever made. [Luke and Elena: Yes.] Ten years ago, when I began podcasting, you were just up against the other podcasters, and now I have to compete with short form ASMR rug deep cleaning videos. 

  Luke Burbank: Oh man. 

  Sam Sanders: I watched them for hours. [Elena: Right? They're so good.] I'll skip my own video and go watch some of that. [Luke: Yeah.] And I'm competing against that. 

  Luke Burbank: Now. I'm also a really big fan of your other show vibe check. 

  Sam Sanders: Thank you. We have some vibe check listeners in the crowd. I know because they were in the merch. Thank you all for being here. 

  Luke Burbank: Yeah, right on. And I guess I'm just wondering if you, because obviously you love pop culture, you love talking about it, but you have two jobs where you really, I mean, do you ever get tired of talking about pop culture? Do you ever feel like you're going to work when it's time to go talk pop culture on one of your shows?  

  Sam Sanders: No. It's just fun. I mean, I get paid to like, watch internet, watch TV, watch movies, listen to music, read books, and then talk about them. And then half the time, I can talk about it from my kitchen table. And I get to expense and have tax write-offs of every streaming subscription and every time I go to the movies. I'm so lucky. Every day, I'm grateful for it. 

  Luke Burbank: That's the right answer. That's right answer. Well, we are lucky that you love doing it because everything that you create is just so entertaining and thoughtful. [Sam: Awww, thanks.] And we really appreciate you. Sam Sanders, everybody, right here on Live Wire. 

  Sam Sanders: Thank y'all for having me. 

  Luke Burbank: That was Sam Sanders right here on Live Wire. Check out the Sam Sanders Show and Vibe Check wherever your pods are cast. Live Wire is brought to you by Powell's Books, a Portland institution since 1971. Powell's offers a selection of new and used books in stores and online at powells.com. Hey there, Live Wire listeners. We are so excited to tell you that we're heading to Minnesota later this month, and we'll be recording an episode of the show at the Fine Line in Minneapolis, Friday, September 26th. We'll be joined by comedy legend, Maria Bamford, as well as a surprise musical guest, so cool, we legally cannot tell you who it is. More information and how you can get your limited tickets over at livewireradio.org. You're tuned in to Live Wire. I'm Luke Burbank:  with Elena Passarello. Of course, each week on the program, we like to ask the Live Wire audience a question. This week, we were inspired by some of Sam Sanders’ pop culture hot takes, which he's got millions of. And so, Elena, what did we ask the live wire audience? 

  Elena Passarello: We wanted to know what is the one TV show you think should be mandatory viewing for you and all your friends. 

  Luke Burbank: Okay. I have many answers to this question that I feel are the correct ones, but we're not here to hear my answer to the question. We're here to here the listeners answers. What are people saying? 

  Elena Passarello: Well, I like some of these, and I'm definitely adding a few of these to my list. Lisa says, that everyone should watch Somebody Somewhere. 

  Luke Burbank: That was one of mine! 

  Elena Passarello:  Lisa says it's because people need to learn how to be good friends, and it's a show about the love of your life being your best friend. Why do you think, Luke, everybody should watch somebody somewhere? 

  Luke Burbank: Well, it is just, I think one of the most beautiful TV shows that's been made in the last, I don't know, 10 years, starring Bridget Everett and Jeff Hiller as these friends. She's from Manhattan, Kansas. She sort of moves away to try to have a whole other life and ends up back in her hometown. And she's trying to kind of figure out what exactly her life is all about. And yeah, she strikes up this friendship and it's just a beautiful story about family and chosen family and friendship. Do not let me corner you at a party and get on the subject of the TV show Somebody Somewhere. 

  Elena Passarello: Yeah, it's a wonderful show and always surprising. I love it too. 

  Luke Burbank: Absolutely. All right. What's another show that one of our listeners is suggesting people should definitely check out. 

  Elena Passarello: Okay, Eric says Andor, because it's perfect. 10 out of 10, no notes. Eric, I need you to get in touch, because I have heard this from so many people. Diego Luna is in it, it's a great show. I think it cost something like $10 million an episode or something. 

  Luke Burbank: Holy smokes. 

  Elena Passarello: But every time I try to watch the pilot, I fall asleep. I've tried like three times. 

  Luke Burbank: Now, also, the question is, when are you watching? Are you putting this on at 10 p.m.? Which for people like you and I is pretty late. 

  Elena Passarello: Yeah, like 10 or 11 p.m. After I've had a cocktail which might have something to do with it. 

  Luke Burbank: Yeah, my my problem is I've really lost the thread on the I guess we'll call it Star Wars universe 

  Elena Passarello: Mm-hmm. Oh, yeah. 

  Luke Burbank: I mean, I'm a kid named Luke who grew up in the eighties. So you can imagine I was very there for it when it was like three movies? But I've been hearing good things about Andor too, so I'll check it out. Okay. One more a TV show that one of our listeners thinks is mandatory viewing. 

  Elena Passarello: I feel like this is a hot take from Talia. Though people look down on it, the real Housewives franchise should be mandatory viewing because we follow a semi-ignored demographic, middle-aged to older women throughout the country. We see them go from housewives to businesswomen. We often see people finding their autonomy as a result of the success of the show. 

  Luke Burbank: Yeah. You'd be shocked at how many people I know who are, you know, respected writers and thinkers and people who are held in high esteem. [Elena: Yeah.] Who will tell me, and this is not even a quote unquote guilty pleasure. They'll just say, no, some of the best television out there are these, these real housewife shows. 

  Elena Passarello: What I hear is that Salt Lake is like, can't miss. 

  Luke Burbank: I met one of the Salt Lake City Real Housewives recently when I was in Salt Lake City. 

  Elena Passarello: Did she throw a drink at you? 

  Luke Burbank: She didn't. She was incredibly nice, which was really kind of off brand. She was very kind. We were there doing wait, wait, don't tell me. And she was the special guest and she was a big fan of public radio and very, very nice to be around. And again, I felt like I wasn't getting the full housewife experience, but it was still pretty cool. 

  Elena Passarello: That's awesome. 

  Luke Burbank: All right. Thank you to everyone who submitted an answer to our audience. Question this week, this is live wire. Our next guest is a filmmaker whose latest documentary took 21 years to complete. It's called Sabbath Queen. And it follows the life of Rabbi Amichai Lau Lavie, who is a descendant in a line of 38 orthodox rabbis. But he has kind of gone his own way. He founded this experimental congregation, which he describes as God optional. He expresses himself through drag. And he chooses to officiate weddings of Jews and non-Jews, which in his world is a very, very big deal, it turns out. Filmmaker Sandi DaBowski joined us for a special conversation after we screened the movie earlier this year. This was at Pam Cuts Tomorrow Theater in Portland, Oregon. Take a listen to this. Sandi DuBowski, welcome to LiveWire. 

  Sandi DuBowski: Thank you. 

  Luke Burbank: Let's talk about the subject of the film, the Rabbi Amichai Lau-Lavie What was it about him that first caught your attention? 

  Sandi DuBowski: So I did a film called Trembling Before God, which was about Hasidic and Orthodox Jews that are lesbian or gay. Ah, okay. So I went to Jerusalem in the late 90s and was looking for people to be in the film. And everyone kept saying, well, the chief rabbi of Israel's nephew is gay, you should meet him. So I asked him to be the film and he refused because he's too much of a diva and he wanted his own movie. Um, he said... He actually said, I don't do collage. So yeah, I mean, in all fairness, Trembling was so much about the struggle to belong within the bounds of orthodoxy and he was already like smashing the box, but we just became friends and developed a deep trust and an intimacy. And five years later, we began filming. 

  Luke Burbank: And he comes from, like you said a long line was it 38? 

  Sandi DuBowski: Three generations of rabbis. 

  Luke Burbank: Of the generations of rabbis. And how would you describe their general persuasion in terms of conservative orthodox? Where were they on the spectrum? 

  Sandi DuBowski: Well, I do call them the Kennedys of Judaism. [Luke: Okay.] This is in a thousand-year dynasty, and, you know, I don't know many people who come from a dynasty, but this is a very, you, know, very traditional, quite conservative, orthodox dynasty. Amichai is the first queer one, as far as we know, to emerge from this thousand years. 

  Luke Burbank: His brother is a very well-established and well-respected rabbi on his own in Israel. And I felt like watching the film, I was witnessing him kind of go on a journey himself around his brother's humanity and his brother queerness. Were you observing that as a filmmaker? 

  Sandi DuBowski: Well I waited 13 years to ask the brother to be in the film. Only when he showed up at Amichai's ordination at the seminary, at a liberal seminary which many orthodox family members for someone like that would have boycotted. But he showed up. And I think there's something about in this family about what does it mean to show up? What does it means to commit to difficult dialog? You know, to not necessarily agree. And we're in such polarized toxic times, that that act of committing to discomfort and disagreement for me is so powerful and so necessary. And so, yes. So I admire this family, the brother-to-brother relationship. They're role models for me. And there's something in there. There's some ingredient about how we stretch. What does it mean to stretch? And we need that now. So it's been very inspiring. 

  Luke Burbank: This is Live Wire Radio. We're talking to Sandy Dubowski about his film, Sabbath Queen. What was your upbringing like? Where did you grow up? What was the environment? 

  Sandi DuBowski: I say that I'm from deep coastal Brooklyn. And my family made chocolate syrup. It's a family business that my grandparents, my father, and I was freed to not make chocolate syrup, but to make films. But you know, I grew up pretty much in a kind of all Jewish neighborhood in Brooklyn. Definitely have gone on a real searching and seeking path in my own Judaism. And Amichai was a real portal, you know, for me to kind of reimagine, how we remake tradition, how we design rituals that really fit our 21st century lives. So Amichai allowed me to grow in different ways. He actually officiated my interfaith queer wedding with my husband, but Amichai also buried my father and he comforted my family in a year of mourning. So there's a lot of layers of relationship here of you know, friends, of protagonist and director, of rabbi and congregant. I mean, this is a very rare, multi-layered relationship in the filming. 

  Luke Burbank: It seems that the central tension of this film, it really is this question of interfaith marriage. I mean, there are a lot of questions, but that seems to be the primary one, and the one that really gets Amachai in a certain amount of hot water. A marriage between two men, them being gay men, did not seem to be the primary issue is that one of them was not Jewish. Why do you think that is seen as such an existential threat to certain Jews? 

  Sandi DuBowski: I think it's intergenerational trauma. I think that's part of it. You know, there were times at which that was really threatening and there was a lot of danger and violence and I think we're still in a very charged time right now about what our boundaries, I think, in the world, in the U.S., in the Jewish world. So it feels like there's something elemental there. But the reality is that 72% of American Jews who are liberal, not orthodox, are in love relationships with non-Jews. Like, that's not our parents' Judaism. That's not out grandparents' Judaism, that's the Judaism of so many people I know. So there's something that is this line in the sand, but it's actually not the reality of so many people, including me. 

  Luke Burbank: And I think it might be Amachai saying that what this now includes when you have people marrying folks who aren't Jewish is you have an expansion, in a way, of the world of Judaism and people who I think he describes as being Jewish. 

  Sandi DuBowski: Mm-hmm. 

  Luke Burbank: And do you see that as an expansion of the possiblity? 

  Sandi DuBowski: Yeah, I mean we have in the film, we have, you know, a Hindu-Jewish couple, we have a Muslim-Jewish couple. Like, I really believe we're in a time of sacred hybridity. You know, we're at a time where there's so much possibilities of love. We need to lean into love. We need love to drive our world. Like we're so fear-based right now, we need to lean into love. I mean, taking this film around the world, as I have over the past 10 months and looking at the immense, beautiful creativity of Jews and those who love us, and it's just astounding to me, you know, and I'm just watching all of these incredible communities and relationships and solidarity and you know I just feel like this is a time that we should aspire to. 

  Luke Burbank: The issue of Gaza comes up in the film, and Amachai is very strong in his opinion that there needs to be a ceasefire. Do you have concern about that message being in the film because it might cause certain people, particularly certain Jews, to reject the idea of the film because that's such a fundamental issue for them? 

  Sandi DuBowski: So the reality is that we've had Jewish film festivals reject the movie because of Amichai's stance and how we portray it in the film. He's very clear. He has pain with his Israeli family. But at the same time, he is critical of the Israeli government and right now, the occupation and the war. And so I feel like it's very honest to Amichai's stance. And we really went back and forth after October 7th to really grapple with how to tell it in the film Because you know every image and every word in this film is a minefield. So we were constantly crafting and spent six years really being incredibly thoughtful about every single minute of this film. So the end where we talk about Gaza is is part of that. Now I've had people come to me and say thank you for the section on Gaza because it really reflects my beliefs and my values about what we as Jews need to say right now and what our stance should be. I do have people who come and say, I love the film, I hate the last two minutes. But I also have people who just now have told me, I love the film, I hate the last two minute, but I'm still recommending it to all my friends. And that means sitting in discomfort and sitting in the ability to hold the both end. And I think we need that. 

  Luke Burbank: That sounds like something that you were saying earlier in the interview you admire about Amachai's family, that they, even if they don't agree on things, they have a framework for sitting in that discomfort. 

  Sandi DuBowski: Yeah, and look, it's such an interesting family. You know, you have this gay brother who, you know, is such a renegade and so radical, but look at the effect. Look at what he's done to his Orthodox rabbi brother. You know? Amichai changed Rabbi Benny. Queer people change people. You know. That's what we do. Like, we come from that place of the margin and we have power, you now, to shape the world. And I think what's so amazing is that, this just happened, but Rabbi Benny's daughter, Orly, just announced that she's gonna become a rabbi. So she's the first female in this 1,000-year dynasty to step into the rabbinate, so. [Luke: Wow.] So Amikai is like, I'm old news. She's the new radical. 

  Luke Burbank: Yeah. Was she be part of a collage or is she gonna get her own film as well? 

  Sandi DuBowski: Sequel.  

  Luke Burbank: Yeah, well, it's a really moving film, congratulations. Sandi DuBowski, thanks for being on Live Wire. 

  Sandi DuBowski: Thank you, thank you, thanks Luke. 

  Luke Burbank:  That was Sandi DuBowski recorded at the Tomorrow Theater in Portland, Oregon. You can check out future screenings of Sabbath Queen all across the country by going to the website sabbathqueen.com. All right. We've got to take a very quick break, but stay where you are because when we return the blue grass duo, The Lowest Pair is going to play us a song. So amazing, Elena, they once played it on repeat for 45 minutes straight. All will be explained in a moment here on Live Wire. Welcome back to Live Wire from PRX. I'm Luke Burbank here with Elena Passerello. Okay, before we get to this week's musical performance from The Lowest Pair, a little preview of next week's show. We are gonna be talking about the nineties. Remember those Elena? CDs, dial-up internet, Polly Shore, Weez in the Juice. 

  Elena Passarello: Polly Shore! 

  Luke Burbank: Uh, it turns out that the nineties are also the subject of Chuck Closterman's book, which is titled the nineties. It was an instant New York times bestseller. Uh, he deep dives into why the nineteens actually really was kind of a big deal and, and really mattered in a lot of important ways in terms of the pop culture. Uh, we've also got a very special musical appearance from the international rock band. They're called Making Movies, which absolutely blew our live audience away. And you're going to want to hear it on the radio coming up next week here on Live Wire. This, of course, is Live Wire. Now from the banks of the Mississippi to stages across North America, our musical guest this week blends claw hammer banjo with punk spirit. Folk Alley describes them as one of those duos where the music sounds like it somehow came from one body. Those bodies belong to Kendl Winter, and Palmer T. Lee. They've released seven albums together, including Horse Camp, which No Depression Magazine describes 'as a rich soundscape that propels the modern and traditional into the future of folk music .' Well the future is now everybody because The Lowest Pair joined us at a special pop-up event at Kiln this very cool co-working space in Portland, Oregon. We recorded this, this summer at Kiln. Take a listen. Now, I've been told through some back channels that the first song that we're going to hear, there was an experience where you played it at a festival? A certain kind of festival. 

  Palmer T. Lee: It was a farmer's market. 

  Luke Burbank: Okay, it was a farmers market. 

  Kendl Winter: A medical marijuana farmers market.

  Luke Burbank: Okay, right. And things got like, got a little on top of you? What happened? 

  Kendl Winter: Well, it was one of our very first opportunities to play. We got, Palmer was from Minnesota, and he came out to visit me in Olympia, Washington, and we got invited to play at a medical marijuana farmer's market, and there were quite a few vendors with samples. 

  Luke Burbank: And you were having back pain. 

  Kendl Winter: It's, you know, to be polite. 

  Luke Burbank: Strictly medical. 

  Kendl Winter: Back pain. Yeah, suddenly our back started hurting. Yeah. Really bad. And so to be polite, we sampled a bit and then Palmer looked at me and said, I have forgotten all of our songs. And I said, I too have forgotten all of our songs. Let's get out of here. 

  Luke Burbank: Did you end up playing? 

  Kendl Winter: Well, we got to the car and I said, well, Palmer, can you drive? And he said, I can't drive. 

  Luke Burbank: No, there's no way, don't do it. 

  Kendl Winter: And I said, I'm not driving. And so we went back and we played this next song for like 45 minutes. 

  Luke Burbank: All right, we'll take the abbreviated version. This is The Lowest Pair here on Live Wire. 

  [The Lowest Pair performs.]

  Luke Burbank: That was The Lowest Pair recorded live at Kiln in Portland, Oregon. Their latest album Horse Camp is available right now. And that is gonna do it for this week's episode of Live Wire. A huge thanks to our guests, Sam Sanders, Sandi DuBowski, and The Lowest Pair. Also special thanks to Roger Meyer and the fine folks at Kiln and Pam Cut’s Tomorrow Theater, especially Katie Jenkins and Erika Oglesby. 

  Elena Passarello: Laura Hadden is our executive producer, Heather De Michele is our Executive Director, and our producer and editor is Melanie Sevcenko. Haziq Bin Ahmad Farid is our Assistant Editor, our house sound is by D. Neal Blake, and Eben Hoffer is our Technical Director. Support this episode comes from Nest Royster. 

  Luke Burbank: Teja Pallikonda is our production fellow. Welcome to the show, by the way. Our house band is Ethan Fox Tucker, Sam Tucker, Sam Pinkerton, Ayal Alvez, Ben Grace, and A Walker-Spring, who also composes our music. This episode was mixed by Eben Hoffer and Haziq Bin Ahmad Farid. 

  Elena Passarello: Additional funding provided by the City of Portland's Office of Arts and Culture. Live Wire was created by Robin Tenenbaum and Kate Sokoloff. This week, we'd like to thank member Kolieha Bush of Eagle Creek, Oregon, and Alena Vazquez of Portland, Oregon. 

  Luke Burbank: For more information about our show or how you can listen to our podcast, visit LiveWireRadio.org. I'm Luke Burbank, for Elena Passarello and the whole Live Wire team. Thanks for listening and we will see you next week.

  PRX.