Episode 617
with Dulcé Sloan, Brian Lindstrom, and S.G. Goodman
Comedian Dulcé Sloan (The Daily Show) shares some anecdotes from her new book Hello, Friends!: Stories of Dating, Destiny, and Day Jobs, including how becoming fluent in Spanish as a kid turned her into the neighborhood's child lawyer; filmmaker Brian Lindstrom chats about his documentary Lost Angel: The Genius of Judee Sill, which follows the short life of a 1970s folk singer who went from living in her car to the cover of Rolling Stone, before fading into obscurity; and singer-songwriter S.G. Goodman performs the title track from her album Teeth Marks. Plus, host Luke Burbank and announcer Elena Passarello share some under-appreciated artists nominated by our listeners.
Dulcé Sloan
Comedian & Author
Dulcé Sloan is one of the sharpest, fastest-rising voices in comedy. Bust Magazine calls her “comedy gold.” She was included in Variety’s prestigious Top Ten Comedians to Watch list, crowned “The New Queen of Comedy” by Slink magazine, and hailed as one of the “Ten Comedians You Need to Know” by Rolling Stone. As a correspondent on Comedy Central’s The Daily Show with Trevor Noah since 2017, her segments have garnered millions of views. Dulcé stars as one of the voices on the animated FOX series The Great North, joining an ensemble of comedy heavyweights, including Will Forte, Jenny Slate, Nick Offerman, and Megan Mullally. When Dulcé’s Comedy Central Presents stand-up special premiered on Comedy Central, the New York Times included the half hour in their “Best Comedy of 2019” roundup. Her book of essays called Hello, Friends!: Stories of Dating, Destiny, and Day Jobs is about her childhood, comedy, and lessons she’s learned throughout it all. Website • Instagram • Twitter
Brian Lindstrom
Filmmaker
Brian Lindstrom is an award-winning filmmaker, whose previous projects include the documentaries Mothering Inside, which was instrumental in the advocacy movement which made Oregon the first state to pass a Bill of Rights for the Children of Incarcerated Parents, and Alien Boy: The Life & Death of James Chasse, an intense examination of police brutality in the death of a non-violent man experiencing mental illness. His latest film, Lost Angel: The Genius of Judee Sill, captures the never-before-told story of folk-rock icon Judee Sill, who in just two years went from living in a car to appearing on the cover of Rolling Stone. The documentary charts her troubled adolescence through her meteoric rise in the music world and early tragic death, featuring interviews with Linda Ronstadt, Jackson Browne, David Crosby, Graham Nash, and more. Instagram
S.G. Goodman
Folk-Rock Singer-Songwriter
Heralded as an “untamed rock 'n' roll truth-teller” by Rolling Stone, S. G. Goodman gracefully pushes out a sound that is folky yet “gritty” and layered with ethereal vocals. Goodman’s 2020 debut album, Old Time Feeling, which tells a story of life in the South, was co-produced by My Morning Jacket’s frontman Jim James. Her second full length album Teeth Marks was released in 2022, which Pitchfork describes as “synthesized decades of Southern music into a singular vision.” Website •Instagram •Twitter
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LLuke Burbank: Hey, Elena.
Elena Passarello: Hey, Luke. How's it going?
Luke Burbank: It is just going absolutely spectacular this week. Mostly because it's time for station location identification examination. Are you ready to play?
Elena Passarello: Yes. I am so ready. I'm pumped.
Luke Burbank: This is the part of the show where I quiz Elena on a place in the country. Live wires on the radio. She's got to guess where we are talking about. I feel like you're might get it from the first hint. This place is the home of Car Henge, a replica of Stonehenge constructed with automobiles. It is north of this city.
Elena Passarello: It's somewhere in Nebraska, but I don't know. The guy's name was like Jim Reindeer or something like that.
Luke Burbank: His name is absolutely Jim Reindeer. My goodness. Okay, you're in the right state. It is Nebraska. It is a smallish place in Nebraska, so I may just give it to you. The second half of Ann Patchett's 1997 novel The Magician's Assistant is set entirely in this place in Nebraska.
Elena Passarello: Oh, I do not know that. But I do love Ann Patchett.
Luke Burbank: When you form a group of people, not a disparate group.
Elena Passarello: Quorum Nebraska.
Speaker 3: It's pretty.
Luke Burbank: Close. Alliance Nebraska, where we are on Kate's part of Nebraska public media. So shout out to everybody in Alliance taking a listen this week. Should we get to the show?
Elena Passarello: Let's do it.
Luke Burbank: All right. Take it away.
Elena Passarello: From PRX, it's Live Wire. This week comedian Dulce Sloan.
Dulce Sloan: The books called Hello Friends Stories of Dating, Destiny and Day Jobs. I wanted to call it Don't Call it a Memoir. I'm only 39.
Elena Passarello: and filmmaker Brian Lindstrom.
Brian Lindstrom: She knew that that music saved her life, and she really felt like she was put on this earth to share that music with the masses and save their lives, too.
Elena Passarello: With music from S.G. Goodman and our fabulous house band, I'm your announcer, Elena Carrillo, and now the host of Live Wire, Luke Burbank.
Luke Burbank: Thank you so much, Elena Passarello. Thanks to everyone tuning in from all over the country, including Alliance, Nebraska. We have a wonderful show in store for you this week. Of course, we've asked the Live Wire listeners a question. We asked, who is an underappreciated artist you think more people should know about? This is kind of in reference to Judy Sill, who we're going to be hearing about. Coming up, Brian Lindstrom made a documentary film about her. We're going to hear the listener responses in just a moment. First, though, it's time for the best news we heard all week this week. This right here is our little reminder at the top of the show. There is some good news happening out there in the world. Elena, what's the best news you heard all week?
Elena Passarello: We've been doing these best newsies for a couple of years now, and every June. I always like to do one that has to do with graduation. It takes place in Tahlequah, Oklahoma, on the Cherokee Nation, where the inaugural graduating class of Oklahoma State University's College of Osteopathic Medicine has just walked across the stage and accepted their diplomas. This is the first physician training program on a Native American reservation. In, you know, recent history, 25 native students between Oklahoma State University's two College of Medicine campuses, the one that's on Cherokee Nation and the one that's in Tulsa graduated this year. And they represent 14 Native American tribes. So this is just a huge deal for a lot of different reasons. The partnership between Cherokee Nation and Oklahoma State began about four years ago. Cherokee Nation put $40 million toward this new building. And when you walk into the building of the medical school, the oath of commitment is right there, written in both English and in Cherokee syllabary. So it's really from the jump, like from when you walk in the door, committed to understanding that this is a medical college that is devoted to being in the space where it is housed. And that doesn't just stop with walking in the door. The people who go to the medical school, whether or not they identify as native people trained to be doctors, and their study includes, work with indigenous healers and work with indigenous gardens. And they shadow native doctors and watch them dealing with their native patients to understand sort of, that form of listening. And all of this is, of course, to just train great doctors. But there's a special focus that's put on maybe training doctors who want to stay in these, in Cherokee Nation and in similar places where there is a shortage of Native American doctors. Something like 0.3% of American physicians are indigenous. And there's also just a shortage of any kind of doctor, in rural areas, which is where a lot of Cherokee Nation identifies as like small rural places. And I think folks are realizing that having a place where you can recruit people who are most likely to stay in the places where they grew up, is going to be, a boon for public health. So huge, huge, big news, something to be super proud of. And a great inaugural class. Congratulations to them.
Luke Burbank: Absolutely. I mean, I can only imagine if I was somebody who was Native American. The comfort that I might feel from having my medical provider also kind of look like me and have potentially a similar experience to me, would just go a long way, because that kind of trust, that relationship with your medical provider is like a big part of the whole thing working.
Elena Passarello: Yeah. And even if you don't look like your patients, if you've been trained by people who understand your patients on, a kinship level or on a community level, like that's just going to train a force of doctors who can help, this group in need, rural folks, native folks. So it's win win.
Luke Burbank: Sweet from patients, Elena, to something that takes kind of a lot of patients out. That's terrible.
Elena Passarello: I got to give you a PhD in puns.
Luke Burbank: This is to the Live Wire listeners for that one. My best news story comes from Seoul, South Korea, where they recently held the international spaced out competition. Now, this is not a race to space. This is a competition where what you are doing is you are trying to lower your heart rate to the lowest of anyone in the group without falling asleep. That's the biggie. You're not allowed to fall asleep. And they've done this in a whole bunch of different countries. It happened to be in Seoul, South Korea this year, but it's actually a really interesting idea. Was started in 2014, and it is just to really drive home the idea that just sitting and just being is not a waste of time at all. It's something that we should all be doing more of probably. And it's actually something that, you know, you could make a competition out of to really drive the point home, particularly in a place like Korea. In the article that I was reading, where there can be a lot of social pressure around school and there are people work really long workweeks to have a bunch of folks, if you're like, hustling through the town square in Seoul and you see a bunch of people sitting by the way, it was raining. So everyone's covered in these like cool, like rain ponchos. The winner was Valentina Vicious, who's actually originally from Chile, but she's a psychology consultant. It does not list like, what her heart rate got down to.
Elena Passarello: Oh, I wanted to know.
Luke Burbank: I know, right. It's like one beat per. Is that even healthy? When is it clinical death? I don't know.
Elena Passarello: When have you flatlined?
Luke Burbank: Yeah. I mean, that's the problem for me is if I have to sit with my own thoughts and feelings quietly, it feels like a certain kind of death to me.
Elena Passarello: My heart rate goes up if I have to sit and do nothing, I just have a panic attack.
Luke Burbank: I think, though, that's the kind of thing that the more you do it, the better you get at it. People who do these, you know, silent meditation retreats and things like that, I think it's just it's a muscle, like anything else. Mine is just very flabby, very, very flat feeling. The, first prize was a, a trophy that was made sort of like Rodin's The Thinker and then also the pensive Buddha sofa, which is, I guess, a national treasure in South Korea. So it was a gold statue that was kind of a combination of those two iconic figures. And, Valentino took it home. Something to aspire for. Honestly, if you're people like you and me. Yeah, who have a hard time with that.
Elena Passarello: A heart racing good game. I guess it was a heart slowing, Lee. Good competition.
Luke Burbank: That's right, that's right. Something that we could all probably use a little more practice on. So that's the best news that I heard this week.
Speaker 3: You.
Luke Burbank: Let's get our first guest on out. She's been a correspondent on Comedy Central's The Daily Show since 2017, where her segments have garnered millions of views. Her Comedy Central Presents standup special was named some of the best comedy of the year by The New York Times, and her first book, Hello, Friends Stories of Dating, Destiny and Day Jobs, is available now. This is d'Orsay Sloane, who joined us on stage at Town Hall in Seattle, Washington. Welcome to Live Wire. Thank you so.
Dulce Sloan: Much. Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Glory to God.
Luke Burbank: You, right in the in the beginning of this book, your new book. Hello, friends. That it is, for folks who who read it. A view into who you really are, not the version of you that they might see at a comedy club or on The Daily Show. What is it that you feel like you can say in this book about yourself that you don't feel like you can put out there in the other venues?
Dulce Sloan: No. I always say what I want. It's just I just wanted just to just give people a chance to know who I was because, like, I wanted to call because the book's called hello, Friends Stories of Dating, destiny and day jobs. I wanted to call it Don't Call It a memoir. I'm only 39 hand, which is hilarious. And the publisher was like, oh, we don't want to tell people what it's not. I was like, but that was funny. What are you talking about?
Speaker 3: So yeah.
Dulce Sloan: So I did get conned by my manager into writing this book. Because you were like, what made you write a book? And I was like, oh, obligations.
Luke Burbank: It's shocking how often that is. What? Get someone to write a book.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Dulce Sloan: I don't know if your manager likes to trick you into opportunities. And so I immediately called Michelle Russo, and I was like, how do I do this? Because, you know, she has her book. It's probably the thickest and it's not Netflix show. So she was like, we'll start with stories that are too long to tell on stage so that you got to have more context behind them. You just need more of a backstory. So I started there and then it was like, okay, well, some people would want to know about my childhood and then my time on The Daily Show. So that's how I kind of, like, planned everything out.
Luke Burbank: We're talking to Sloan about her new book, hello, friends. You talk about your mom being very supportive of your, the fact that you wanted to be in entertainment, that you wanted to be a performer. A lot of parents might say, well, try to figure out a, you know, a safer plan. That was not your mom. You. Right? She would help make your costume. She's very supportive, except for this one thing, which was color guard.
Dulce Sloan: Which she brought.
Luke Burbank: Up fairly recently.
Dulce Sloan: It was very odd. So it's so funny because, like, my mom would sometimes be backstage at shows and sometimes comics would go, so you're like, supportive of Tulsi doing stand up? She's like, yeah. And when I was like, and they would go, can we have a hug? So this is like, sure. They're like, why should they? Because my mom hates this. It's so nice to support her. But I think the reason my mom was supportive is because my uncle is DVP, so he's a professional. So we were.
Luke Burbank: Roller skating, too. Because I love you. Yeah. Here at Lynnwood. Roll away. I was blown away that that you, Stevie, is your uncle.
Dulce Sloan: So he's my mom's youngest brother. So she has four brothers. My Uncle Steve is the youngest of all the boys. And so I think because my uncle's been working as a performer literally my entire life, since before I was born. It wasn't a wild thing to see. It's like, well, my brother did it and my brother's been successful at it, so let me be supportive. Because I think my grandma was supportive of my uncle, so it wasn't a wild thing in my family to be able to see. Yeah. So like when I was started, because I did theater all through school, and at one point I was like, oh, I'll be fun to like do Color Guard because it's, you know, twirling flags and a wooden rifle. I was like, yeah, be outside. And I thought my mom just didn't want me to be near the football team. That's what I thought it was because I started high school with dick up titties. I should have been way more popular. But even then, you know, boys respected me, so. I mean, not as much as they should have, but, you know, you still get in trouble the ways you get in trouble. Me and my mom are both sitting in our respective cars in the driveway in our house in Atlanta, and my brother was like, I guess he was doing yard work. He would just stand there holding the rake. And I don't know why. I randomly asked my mom, like if something came up. I was like, mama, why do you not want me to do Color Guard? And again, I thought her answer would be because the football team, she was like, oh, I was supposed to use my gas, but you to twirl a flag? Oh, that's what I she's like, I was supposed to use my gas for you to twirl a flag. What kind of career opportunities was you going to get? From twirling a damn flag? That's not a salary position. What were you going to do, go from office building, an office building to raising a flag every morning and then a full time job. And it was just this 15 minute rant.
Unidentified: And me and my brother were like, what the hell is going on? This is a.
Dulce Sloan: No is better. Me. You didn't want to spend my money for you to twirl a damn flag. I was like, okay, thank you. It was a very interesting perspective because she was like, that's not a salary position. Raising up flags in front of buildings every morning. And a fourth. And I was like, oh, you thought, thought about, okay.
Luke Burbank: This is Live Wire from PR. We're at town Hall this week talking to d'Orsay Sloane, whose new book is hello Friends Stories of dating to. Sunny and day jobs stick around. We'll be back with more in just a moment. Hey, welcome back to Live Wire from press here at Town Hall. I'm Luke Burbank, here with Lane and Passarelli, and we're very honored to be joined by Julia Sloan from The Daily Show and many other places, including now the new book, Hello Friends Stories of Dating, Destiny and Day Jobs, something that you write about in the book, which I always wanted to make sure I was properly grasping, was you speak Spanish, but as I understand it, you are not because your parents were Spanish speakers. This was just you spent your young life in Florida and just the environment. And also elementary school was enough to teach you speak fluent Spanish?
Dulce Sloan: Well, when we moved back. So me and my mom were both born in Miami in the same hospital, I think I was born in a room above where she was born. And then we moved to Oklahoma. My brother was born, we moved to Colorado, and we moved to Georgia. And all of that happened before I started kindergarten. And then we moved back to Miami in 92 after Hurricane Andrew. And so I was in the fourth grade and so like nine years old. So in Miami, you take Spanish every single day. I picked it up immediately to the point by the time I was in the fifth grade, I was like helping translate stuff for my teacher. So I picked it up very fast. And then so she commented, I was like, do you think it is just like, you got a teacher meeting at 5:00 today? And also my teachers were like, because I think one of my teachers was Mexican one, the teacher was Cuban. And so they're like, you're not going to sound like you're not going to have an American accent. You're not going to be Uno those traits in this classroom. So we had to learn how to speak with an accent. And then we moved back to Atlanta. We lived in a like we moved back to Atlanta. We moved to Norcross. And my neighborhood is predominantly Mexican, recent immigrants to America. And so I would have to help my neighbors register their kids for school. One of our neighbors, her husband, got a DUI so that I had to, like, I'm sitting there with the, like, I'm sitting there with a Spanish dictionary. They're like, you don't know this. I said, this isn't even English.
Speaker 3: This is legal, ese. I'm not a lawyer. I'm 14. So, like.
Dulce Sloan: Can we give me a second? Also, talk.
Speaker 3: To your husband slowly.
Dulce Sloan: But I went with her to get, like, her health insurance at work. And so I was always, like, helping my neighbors out. It was my minor in college. Okay. And then by the time I got. And so after I graduated, I was doing bilingual customer service. So I was telling people in two languages, we cannot pick your trash up. We're not turning your lights back on to you. Pay your bill. Selling cars or managing auto body shop. My last job, I'm selling stucco.
Luke Burbank: Were you were doing all this stuff as you were pursuing your career as a performer? I'm curious. You say in the book that, a lot of people, particularly women, particularly white women in stand up, talk about having a really hard time getting respect and being taken seriously. And you write that you did not necessarily feel that, generally speaking, that you felt respected or at least you felt taken seriously.
Dulce Sloan: Here's a thing. When you're in a male dominated industry and most of them don't want to sleep with you, they let you do your job.
Speaker 3: And.
Dulce Sloan: And that's what it was. Most of these dudes didn't want to sleep with me. So then I just had to be a comic because I wasn't going to get the well, this guy was DMing me and said that he because I had like I also was like when I was doing. Also people realize that like, stand up still is very divided racially because especially in like. Everywhere. But I'm trying to say Atlanta. I'm like, no, it's the whole country. And so there's, there is urban, quote unquote urban. So black rooms and then mainstream, which is white rooms. And so the styles of stand up is different, but also it's very hard as a woman to get into black rooms, because I'll say we already got one female on this show. We're not putting no up. So they're very so it's like very just there is a fixed number of women that they're putting on shows. And so I was like, I can keep doing this or I can be at this one club all night hoping I can get up or I know these white rooms, I'm still performing in a bar and I'm still getting paid in chicken wings. It's just who's making these wings, right? So are they just lemon, pepper or buffalo is the question. That's right. So instead of waiting at this one club on a Tuesday hoping to go up, I can go do two spots in these white rooms and no, I'm going to get up. So for me it was like I'm just going where the opportunity is. And so I was able to go up more in white rooms because it wasn't there. They weren't treating the women as like this finite commodity. It was like, if you sign up, you go up. And so that's where I was able to go back and forth. But yeah, it literally is. They didn't want to sleep with me. And so I didn't have to deal with a lot of the nonsense that some of the girls had to deal with.
Luke Burbank: You write about. Well, I mean, the name of the book is dating Destiny and Day Jobs. And you, you maybe don't really name names because you're being sort of creative with how you describe people, but you definitely like, describe teachers who you didn't like, who you felt treated you in a way that was probably racially motivated. A guy who you dated, who I can't get out of my head. You said he was unfamiliar with going to the dentist and had, I think, fire breath. No no no no no.
Dulce Sloan: I was, I his breath was fine.
Luke Burbank: Okay.
Dulce Sloan: I don't listen. When you write a book, you don't remember everything? Yeah, it's 240 pages. I don't I'm wondering.
Luke Burbank: If people in the book have have seen the book or talked to you about the book.
Dulce Sloan: Well, what's interesting is one of the guys in the book did messaged me, on Instagram, but I don't think actually, I know he did not read it. He was just saying, hey, I know he didn't read it, because I, because, you know, some certain people don't read, he's I got a dream with you in it. I'm just like, you are ten years too late for this message. What he wants. But I do use different monikers for. Is it.
Luke Burbank: The mechanic?
Dulce Sloan: It was not the mechanic. The mechanic is very much married. I did have a very cathartic moment with the mechanic, last year, as. And when I met him. So we had been, like, talking for, like, two years when I started doing stand up. And he would not come to any show, wouldn't come, didn't want to. I went back and forth with this man for almost 23 years. I was like 31, right? And I moved to LA, and then I'm in New York and. So now he's gotten married because he started the woman he married, he met as soon as I moved to LA. And so I am opening for Trevor last year.
Luke Burbank: Trevor, Noah.
Dulce Sloan: Trevor, Noah. And he, he came to the show. And I didn't know he was at the show. And so there's my mom came and the show's over, and I get a text from him to mine, you know, not saving the phone, but I know the number. And he was like, you had a great set. And I was like, where are you? And so there's like this private club that's like inside the Fox Theater in Atlanta. And it's like the second time I opened for Trevor in Atlanta. And so I meet up with him and and his wife is there. And I was like, what are you even doing here? And so the first time he ever saw me doing stand up was at the Fox Theater.
Luke Burbank: Wow.
Dulce Sloan: Opening for Trevor. And he's like, oh, I figured you'd be on the show because of how tight you and Trevor are at the desk. And I saw his wife's eyes light up like the hell. What was interesting is that the tickets for that show in Atlanta went on sale in November. The show was in January. I didn't know until two days before that I was going to even be opening for Trevor, so I could have not even been there. But he bought tickets. Just assuming that I would be, And I, Tonya. And so I didn't work and I got in the car. I was like, kind of crying because I had always wanted him to see me do standup. And it was an old wound, like a very old wound from when I was like 27, that now at like 39 was like being healed. But then the other thing that was so great to me is the uncomfortable conversation I knew he was having with his wife. And that is priceless. That's right.
Luke Burbank: And that is a perfect place.
Unidentified: To wrap this up. Dulce de Sloan's new book is hello, friends still say thank you so much.
Luke Burbank: That was dual, say, Sloan right here on Live Wire. Make sure to check out her book. Hello, friends. Stories of dating, destiny and day jobs. And of course, you can always check her out on The Daily Show. And. This is Live Wire. Each week we like to ask our listeners a question. This week we asked who is an underappreciated artist you think more people should know about? Elena has been collecting up those responses. What do you see in.
Elena Passarello: Okay, so this first one is hands down my favorite. Tyler would like more people to know about Sarah McCrane or Luke. Do you know who Sarah McCrane or is?
Luke Burbank: Not even a little bit.
Elena Passarello: I have actually seen. I didn't know her name, but I'd seen her videos on TikTok and Instagram Reels. She does interpretive dances of things getting crushed by a hydraulic press. So you watch like a birthday cake being smashed or like a, you know, sedan. And then she's just really good dancer who kind of, like, turns her body into that process. And she's usually wearing clothes, like in the color of whatever the item that's being squished is. And I would be embarrassed to tell you how many of her videos I have seen.
Luke Burbank: That is amazing. I mean, that might be the apotheosis of creativity in 2024. Like, I watched this one account where a woman, a British woman, is just responding to if she thinks it was a good smash or not, like she has certain kind that she likes, and that other kinds of she doesn't really have time for. So what I'm watching is a woman's reviewing of one of those videos where some industrial process is smashing like a bowl of jello, a bowling ball, a thing of Play-Doh.
Elena Passarello: You're looking for the critical content, the, the commentary, the color commentary of the Smosh. Nice.
Luke Burbank: But I'm telling you, they are artists in a way. So good recommendation. What's another relatively unknown creator that one of our listeners want more people to know about?
Elena Passarello: Now, this is sort of in the opposite direction, because I know I don't have to tell you who this person is, but Marie thinks that Kelly Clarkson needs more love, more tours, more everything from the people. Her vocal chops are so powerful and I agree, I feel like one day I mean, she gets plenty of appreciation. People love her television show. Apparently she has a wonderful personality, but one day people are going to be like, that's one of the greatest interpreters of any songbook that we had in this decade or so. I mean, she could sing anything.
Luke Burbank: I just saw it. Speaking of TikTok, I just saw a clip of her when she was just getting started, and I forget what she's maybe singing breakaway or one of her early, like, big hits, but it's just one of those, like in the studio kind of clips. And then she just breaks into the song and you're like, well, that's from another planet. That's not an instrument most of us are working with.
Elena Passarello: Yeah, it's like, how is that a part of her body? And I have the same body part, because when I do it, it sort of sounds like Foghorn Leghorn.
Luke Burbank: But hey, what's one more artist that one of our listeners thinks should get a little more due?
Elena Passarello: I love this one from Lupita, who wants more people to know about, quote, the people who bake the fresh treats at my local bakery or at any bakery for that matter. Exclamation point. I love you, bakers! Three exclamation points.
Luke Burbank: You know what I learned the other day, Elena and I want to mention I'm 48 years old. I learned that scones are really good.
Elena Passarello: Oh.
Luke Burbank: Oh, yeah. I was getting as a kid the absolute worst scone selection that you could ever have. And so I filed it away under I don't like those. And then I was getting some coffee and on a whim, I grabbed like a freshly baked scone and ate. That was my. It might have been one of the best things I've ever eaten in my entire life.
Elena Passarello: Yeah. Your your gateway scone, really does affect you.
Luke Burbank: You never forget. Right? Well, thank you to everyone who sent in a response to our listener question. We've got another one for next week's show, which we will reveal in just a moment. In the meantime, we got to welcome our next guest over. He is an award winning filmmaker from Portland, Oregon. His film, Mothering Inside helped lead Oregon to become the first state to pass a bill of rights for the children of incarcerated parents. His latest project is lost Angel The Genius of Judy. Still, it tells the real story of an L.A. folk singer in the 1970s who, in just two years went from living in her car to appearing on the cover of rolling Stone magazine and then back to relative obscurity, Film Threat warns it's the kind of film the buries itself in your ribcage and keeps glowing for days afterward. Brian Lindstrom joined us on stage at the Alberta Rose Theater in Portland. Hello, Brian.
Brian Lindstrom: Hello.
Luke Burbank: Welcome to the show. I loved this movie so much. It was one of those things where I watched it. And then I immediately started texting people in my life I know who, like, enjoy great stories and enjoy great music. I'm wondering, how did you first even learn there was somebody named Judy still out there?
Brian Lindstrom: Well, I should say that filmmaking is a very collaborative effort, and, I made this film with my good friend Andy Brown, who was my co-director. And, right after YouTube came out and he showed me, the clip of Judy performing the kiss on the Old Gray Whistle Test BBC show because he knew it would blow me away. And of course it did. And that kind of started us on this journey that, leads us here today.
Luke Burbank: What was it about her that intrigued you, aside from liking the music? What was the thing that made you think, oh, this, that we should have a whole movie about this person.
Brian Lindstrom: Right. Well, it definitely was liking the music, but it was also getting to know her life story. And at first glance, the kind of, strange dichotomy between her, I would say spiritual music and the kind of hard facts of her life, which include armed robbery, prison time, things like that. But as we got deeper into this story, we realized that she was doing those things because she was so numbed out from childhood trauma that she was really just looking to feel something. And I think we can all relate to, someone who was, in a way, trying to save their own life, but is going about it in ways that maybe aren't that healthy.
Luke Burbank: Yeah, she was part of an armed robbery when she was really young, like 18 or something. And, in the film, somebody says that her account of this was that she said, okay, mother sticker, this is a yep.
Brian Lindstrom: That's true. Yep.
Luke Burbank: Does that also sort of typify her general vibe in life?
Brian Lindstrom: Well, she was definitely her own person and she did everything, you know, kind of according to her own lights. But what was so interesting about working on this film, because we eventually got her, diaries and journals and, you know, Judy, when you heard the facts of her life, you kind of thought, okay, well, she's a great storyteller, and she's kind of, you know, making this sound a little bit more interesting than maybe it was, but it was all true. Everything.
Luke Burbank: Yeah. You have all these newspaper clippings. I mean, rock and roll music is full of tall tales. And then she would talk about something like being sent to, like, a reform school or a robbery, and then you're watching the film and there's the clipping from some local newspaper about 18 year old delinquent Judy Sill being in this thing. Like, it all kind of checked out, I guess. Yeah.
Brian Lindstrom: I mean, she learned to play, the church organ and reform school.
Elena Passarello: Wow.
Luke Burbank: How would you describe her musical style? Like we were saying, folk folk music. But what does that really mean?
Brian Lindstrom: You know, I don't think folk music really does it justice. You know, she was so gifted. As Linda Ronstadt says in the film, you know, she had more chops than anyone on the scene, with the exception of Brian Wilson. And that's pretty good company to be.
Luke Burbank: And another person who, you know, struggled, right? You know, I mean, I don't want to generalize or make a diagnosis, but it does seem that sometimes the kind of brain that can make the music that Brian Wilson made in the Judy Soul made, that can be a pretty an unquiet place.
Brian Lindstrom: Yeah. That was part of her motivation in making this film, you know, was really trying to figure out a way where, even though when we started there was really no archive of Judy to speak of, we really wanted to try to make a first person film so that the audience could really be in Judy's head and understand what it is like to have that kind of a gift. What are the challenges, and also, what is it like to have that kind of a gift and know that that music saved your life? Because Judy went from kicking heroin on the floor of the LA County jail with no aspirin, no nothing in 1968 to being on the cover of rolling Stone in 1972. And so she knew that that music saved her life, and she really felt like she was put on this earth to share that music with the masses and saved their lives, too.
Luke Burbank: So you decide you want to make this movie about her, but then you realize there's not really an archive of her stuff. It's not like trying to do a documentary about Bob Dylan or something. There was no Instagram like, how do you actually put together the visuals of an entire movie about a person who is fairly, you know, unknown?
Brian Lindstrom: Well, you know, it's kind of a, an exercise in faith and you just kind of start out and know that, like, her music has touched me, her story touches me. I have faith it will touch other people. We did our first round of interviews in 2013, in LA. And what was so, heartening about that and. These are like Judy's dear friends is. They all had such specific stories about Judy, and she was still, like, a palpable presence in their lives. And so we knew that, like, if she's touching those people that way, if we can kind of do our jobs as filmmakers, I bet she'll touch an audience that way.
Luke Burbank: So her musical style, as it sort of evolved seemed to be this almost kind of, ethereal. You know, she talked a lot about God and about sort of the spirit realm. It was very artsy. And this was she was on the same, Asylum Records, which started by David Geffen. It's like her, like Jackson Browne, the Eagles. Who am I forgetting from Asylum Records at that time?
Brian Lindstrom: Joni Mitchell, Joni Mitchell is out there.
Luke Burbank: Right? So she's on this like the label to be on at that time in LA if you're making this kind of music. Right. And yet, even though she was sort of an artist's artist, all the cool people like Linda Ronstadt, you know, really loved her. Her music didn't ever really click with the wider world. Why do you think that was?
Brian Lindstrom: You know, I don't know, of course, is the honest answer. And I kind of bristle at the question and just a little bit because like anyone who's listen.
Luke Burbank: We can end this interview now.
Brian Lindstrom: Brian, I'm out of here. Anyone who's listened to Judy's the Kiss. You know, I just can't even like for you.
Luke Burbank: Don't entertain the idea of it not connecting for.
Brian Lindstrom: Exactly like, how could that possibly be put in the same sense that she didn't make it? And yet I understand, of course, what you're asking. And I think the very things that, maybe prevented her from making it, you know, at that point in time, is the reason we're talking about her now, you know, the kind of timeless quality because, like, we really wanted to show Judy's legacy. You know, we felt like that film needed to have a kind of present tenseness to it. And we were so lucky to have, you know, Fleet Foxes and Big Thief and Wise Blood and Sean Colvin and, you know, people who really kind of cement and, exemplify Judy's legacy.
Elena Passarello: I'm so fascinated by something that you just said about a major goal of this documentary was a first person, approach. But the first person obviously isn't here and and hasn't been here for a long time. So what does that look like when you're a filmmaker to to not just tell the story of someone so that we can really feel it and understand it and understand the impact that they made, but to feel like we're inside the person, that's what you meant, right? Like that.
Brian Lindstrom: We're absolutely, you know, we feel like, the film, you know, I hope this isn't sound. You get typical, but it's a hard hitting film, you know? I mean, you're dealing with someone who, really grappled with some big questions in life and has some challenges and also had some incredible gifts. And we really wanted to help the audience kind of get inside that and understand from Judy's perspective what all that was like. And we were so lucky that, I tracked down a, a retired journalist named Chris Van Ness, who, used to write for the LA Free Press. And in 1972, he did this really comprehensive article on Judy, which really kind of amounted to like an oral history of her life up to that point. And we thought like, My God, if there's audio of that interview, we can have Judy narrate the film. And so I, Chris didn't have much of a kind of online footprint. And so I wrote him a letter and we he got back to me and he said, you know, I'm wheelchair bound, but I do think I have a tape of that interview in a box in my attic. Oh my gosh. My, co-director Andy Brown lived in New York at the time. So he drove to Connecticut and met Chris. And Chris, you know, was guiding them from the bottom of the stairs up to the right. And so we got the audio tape. And at that point, the tape has been in a box for literally 50 years, and we don't know if there's any audio information on the tape. And one of the biggest eureka moments in making the film. So when we had it, you know, digitally transferred and we play it and you can hear the first kind of syllables of Judy's voice and it's like, first of all, it felt like a strange, like there's Judy, you know, because I hadn't heard her speaking voice before that.
Luke Burbank: Wow. Oh my gosh, that must have been emotional. It was a lot of reasons.
Brian Lindstrom: Yeah. And it was also just a hell of a relief because we knew that. Right. We have a narrator now, right?
Luke Burbank: Yeah. You did something also. Really I thought kind of interesting with the film where because she was apparently a real meticulous diary keeper. She wrote a lot of things down. And you, you sort of animate those in her different, you know, handwriting and how she was feeling in the moment. And it really does kind of bring her alive. Was she did you just find a bunch of her diaries or writing in the margins of, like, the music? Where are you getting this written material from her?
Brian Lindstrom: Well, that's an interesting story. My co-director, Andy Andy Brown, tracked down Judy's cousin who had all of those journals in a box and was just like, I don't, you know, here, there you go. And so for the longest time, like all of Judy's kind of journals and letters and things were in a box and Andy's apartment in New York, and we kind of like, slowly a. Or, you know, got the archive of everything, Judy, you know, and like, even like the bills of her, hospital stays. And, you know, it was in her address book in which she wrote, Judy. Still no home ever. Wow. You know, it was it was also like a. We felt like we were entrusted with something, you know, we felt like, oh, my God, this is like a gift that's been bestowed upon us, and we really need to honor. Honor her, you know, with what we did with the film.
Luke Burbank: It was an interesting experience watching it, because I became so connected with her and I was rooting for her so hard, and I think I had a sense of how the movie was going to end. But I kept thinking, well, maybe she gets famous. Maybe she's like, maybe she wins eight Grammys and tours with the Rolling Stones. I don't know, I was like wanting the actual sort of March of time and the facts of the world to change for her, because I found her to be so interesting. And again, I was just I just wanted things to go well for because of everything she'd been through.
Brian Lindstrom: Well, you know, she's bigger now than she ever was in life. And people are continually to, you know, rediscover her music and, you know, through the, the people that she's touched, her music lives on. And, you know, I think that Judy's life also has a lot to give us, not just her music. And one thing that was really, empowering for me, was, you know, what I love about Judy? Is she really kind of, like, throws this upon ourselves in interesting ways. And there's some things about her music in her life we just have to grapple with. And one is, you know, the fact of her death, unintentional heroin overdose. And at that point, you know, this was like before addiction was even considered really a disease. And so on her death certificate, it says suicide, you know, which is so such a hard, you know, thing to look at.
Luke Burbank: And something that a lot of people in the film wanted to really kind of dispel. Perhaps people that knew her were like, this was not somebody who took their own life, right? And that seemed very important to them.
Brian Lindstrom: Absolutely. I mean, you know, every one of them said she wanted to live, you know, she was a person who had an addiction and she wanted to live another thing that was, really impressive about all the people that knew Judy was, besides how much they cared for her was how much fun they said she was, you know, and it was really, empowering for Andy and I and the crew to know that, like, this wasn't like a one note downer person that kind of like, you know, tortured artist. She was like the life of a party. She, was a dear friend. She knew when everyone's birthdays were, she would bring people together for every holiday. You know, she was really a, you know, a loving, bright person.
Luke Burbank: Yeah. Like, as soon as she got some money, she got, like, a house in the valley with a swimming pool and was just like, the fun place to be until she ran out of the money, which that's all we can hope for in a friend. So if they get some money, they get a house in the valley with a swimming pool. So, Brian, it's a really, really great film. I hope everybody gets a chance to see it. Brian Lindstrom, everybody right here on Livewire.
Brian Lindstrom: Thank you so much.
Luke Burbank: That was Brian Lindstrom right here on Live Wire. His film lost Angel The Genius of Judy still is available on streaming services right now. I'm Luke Burbank, that's Alana Passarelli. We have to take a very quick break, but don't go anywhere. When we come back, we're going to hear some music that will absolutely break your heart in the best way. From the wonderful s g. Goodman. Stay with us. Welcome back to Live Wire from PR. I'm Luke Burbank here with Elena Passarelli. Okay, before we get to our musical guest, a little preview of next week's show, we are going to be talking to comedian, writer, and live wire pal Hari Kondabolu. Of course, you've heard him on wait, wait, don't tell me you seen him on the Late Show with David Letterman. And he's also got a comedy special out called Vacation Baby, which he intentionally did not title and baby, for reasons that will become clear when you hear Hari on the show, then we're going to talk to Kristy Colter about her book, Exit Interview The Life and Death of My Ambitious Career. It's a memoir recounting the intense and sometimes soul crushing work culture she says she dealt with while working as an executive at Amazon. And by the way, we recorded this conversation in Seattle, mere blocks from Amazon's world headquarters, because we like to live dangerously on this show, Ellen and we had extra security ringing Town Hall in Seattle for that interview. Plus, we're going to get some music from indie rock royalty, the band quasi, and we're also gonna be looking to get your answer to our listener question. Lana, what are we asking the Live Wire listeners for next week's show?
Elena Passarello: Okay, fasten your seatbelts. We want to know what is the craziest thing that a kid has ever said to you.
Luke Burbank: Oh, gosh. Hey, they do say the darndest things, don't they?
Elena Passarello: I I've heard that they do.
Luke Burbank: If you have an answer to our question, what's the craziest thing a kid has ever said to you? Go ahead and hit us up on social media. We're at live wire radio pretty much everywhere. This is live Wire from our musical guest this week is equally at home at the Grand Ole Opry, as she is standing behind a tiny desk of the NPR variety. She spent her childhood in Western Kentucky as a devoted member of the Southern Baptist Church before earning a degree in philosophy, which for her, kind of put an end to the whole Southern Baptist thing, as did her coming out as queer and joining the politically active indie music scene. Her music has taken her all over, playing with folks like Jason Isbell and Tyler Childers. Rolling Stone calls her an untamed rock n roll truth teller, and we met her at the James Theater as part of the Mission Creek Festival and multi-day music and literature festival that takes place every spring in downtown Iowa City, Iowa. Take a listen to s G Goodman playing her song Teeth Marks here on Live Wire.
Speaker 3: For. All. When you pull that cord, tell me you're gonna bless my who it is. Oh, it already is. When you lift the bed of tea a bit. My own little souvenir with teeth left. Marks it is. Oh, baby. It.
Unidentified: It is.
Speaker 3: Prayed over dead birds in your city park and held your hand. So cross my heart. Yet it only knows. Oh, you know, we left them there. We took a funeral march. That goodbye to you was the hardest part, but it did. Oh, you know, did Lori say you. Only. In terms. You see things my way. I see things my way. Oh. Oh, maybe. You see things. Always see things my way. You. No. You say. All. You see things my way. You see things my way. Hold on. You see things my way. See things my way.
Unidentified: Who? You know. Bush.
Speaker 3: Is like you to say something smart. Tell me how this should break my heart. Better. Did all you know? Did all you know we did. It.
Luke Burbank: That was SG Goodman right here on Live Wire. Make sure to check out her album Teeth Marks, which is out now. That is going to do it for this episode of the show. A huge thanks to our guest d'Orsay Sloane, Brian Lindstrom, and SG Goodman. Special thanks this week to Mission Creek Festival, Nina Lowman, Brian Johansen, Sarabande Books, and Joanna Engelhardt.
Elena Passarello: Laura Hadden is our executive producer, Heather De Michelle is our executive director and our producer and editor is Melanie Savchenko. Evan Hoffer is our technical director and our house sound is by Daniel Blake. Trey Hester is our assistant editor. Rosa Garcia is our operations associate. Jackie Ibarra is our production fellow, and Becky Phillips is our intern. Our house band is Ethan Fox Tucker, Sam Tucker, Zach Pony Delmar, Jacob Miller, Al Alves, and a Walker Spring who also composes our music. This episode was mixed by Molly Pettit and Trey Hester.
Luke Burbank: Additional funding provided by the James F and Marion L Miller Foundation. Livewire was created by Robin Tenenbaum and Kate Sokoloff. This week, we'd like to thank members Rita Zante of Seattle, Washington, and Nicole get her song of Portland, Oregon. For more information about our show or how you can listen to our podcast, head on over to Livewire radio.org. I'm Luke Burbank. For Alaina Passarelli and the whole live wire crew. Thank you for listening and we will see you next week.
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