Episode 587
with Kelsey McKinney, Brenda Shaughnessy, and Madison Cunningham
Journalist and podcaster Kelsey McKinney (Defector) dishes on producing her juicy podcast Normal Gossip; poet Brenda Shaughnessy explains how her newest collection Tanya is partially an attempt to reconnect with her estranged college roommate; and Grammy-winner Madison Cunningham performs her single "Broken Harvest." Plus host Luke Burbank and announcer Elena Passarello share some normal gossip from our listeners.
Kelsey McKinney
Podcaster & Writer
Kelsey McKinney is a dynamo staff writer and co-owner of Defector media, an employee-owned sports and culture website. She hosts the popular podcast Normal Gossip, which "delivers juicy, strange, funny, and utterly banal gossip about people you'll never know and never meet" while her first book, God Spare the Girls, a novel packed with religious family secrets and sisterhood, was published to rave reviews. More of her creative work and reporting has been widely published and appears in The New York Times, GQ, Vanity Fair, Vogue, and Cosmopolitan, among many others. Website • Instagram • Twitter
Brenda Shaughnessy
Poet
Brenda Shaughnessy is an Okinawa-Irish American poet whose poetic sensibilities are lauded for both their technical and emotional potency. She's the author of seven poetry collections, including The Octopus Museum, which was a New York Times 2019 Notable Book, and Liquid Flesh: New and Selected Poems. Her most recent collection,Tanya, pays tribute to Shaughnessy's literary heritgae of women writers and mentors while grappling with the ongoing mysteries of love, art, and loss among other themes. Recipient of a Literature Award from the American Academy of Arts and Letters, a Guggenheim Foundation Fellowship, and the James Laughlin Award, her poems have appeared in Best American Poetry, The Nation, The New Yorker, Paris Review, and elsewhere. She is also a Professor of English and Creative Writing at Rutgers University-Newark. Website • Instagram • Twitter
Madison Cunningham
Singer-Songwriter
Madison Cunningham is an American singer-songwriter and guitarist. Rolling Stone described her music as "a new spin on West Coast folk-rock," and her latest album Revealer won the Grammy for “Best Folk Album”, it’s full of confessions, intimations, and hard truths Madison has learned over her tenure in the music industry. Her past albums titled Who You Are Now and Wednesday (Extended Version) were nominated for a Grammy Award for Best Americana Album and Best Folk Album respectively. She has also toured with Andrew Bird, and feels her songwriting soars when she allows herself to confident in her idiosyncrasies. Website • Instagram • Listen
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Luke Burbank: [00:06:00] Hey, Elena. [00:06:01][0.2]
Elena Passarello: [00:06:01] Well, hello there, Mr. Burbank. How's it going? [00:06:04][2.6]
Luke Burbank: [00:06:05] It's going very well, actually, this week. Are you ready for our, ah, weekly "Station Location Identification Examination"? [00:06:12][7.0]
Elena Passarello: [00:06:13] Woo-hoo! Yeah. [00:06:13][0.2]
Luke Burbank: [00:06:13] This is where I quiz Elena. About somewhere in the country where Live Wire is on the radio. She's going to try to guess the place we are talking about. This city is actually an island. It's 12 miles long and five miles wide. It has fewer than 40,000 year round residents, but it gets about 2 million visitors a year. (Hmm.) It's home of the famous Salty Dog Cafe. [00:06:34][20.3]
Elena Passarello: [00:06:35] Homer, Alaska. That's, that's the Salty Dog that I've been to. [00:06:39][4.2]
Luke Burbank: [00:06:40] Maybe there's a couple of them. How about this? This island has over 300 tennis courts. A thousand bike racks. [00:06:45][5.3]
Elena Passarello: [00:06:46] Not Homer, Alaska. [00:06:47][1.0]
Luke Burbank: [00:06:48] 24 championship golf courses, but zero neon signs. [00:06:52][3.8]
Elena Passarello: [00:06:53] Is it Hilton Head Island, South Carolina? [00:06:55][2.1]
Luke Burbank: [00:06:55] It is Hilton Head Island, South Carolina, where we are on WJWJ. [00:06:59][4.0]
Elena Passarello: [00:07:02] You had me at golf courses. [00:07:03][0.8]
Luke Burbank: [00:07:04] I knew you would zero in on that being a South Carolinian. [00:07:07][2.4]
Elena Passarello: [00:07:07] I think it was a big deal to have a Salty Dog. I think it's like DAWG cafe t-shirt when I was in sixth grade as well. [00:07:14][6.5]
Luke Burbank: [00:07:14] Yeah, it's got the dog with the rain like a little kind of like rain slicker hats, right? We saw that even in Seattle when I was growing up. Anyway. Shout out to everyone tuning in from Hilton Head on WJ WJ. All right, so we get to the show. [00:07:26][11.8]
Elena Passarello: [00:07:26] Let's do it. [00:07:27][0.5]
Luke Burbank: [00:07:27] All right. Take it away. [00:07:28][0.5]
Elena Passarello: [00:07:31] From PRX it's LIVE WIRE! This week podcaster Kelsey McKinney. [00:07:41][9.4]
Kelsey McKinney: [00:07:42] It's extremely ridiculous to be like, Let me take all of my skills as a reporter and apply them to gossip stories I've obtained from random people. [00:07:50][8.4]
Elena Passarello: [00:07:52] And poet Brenda Shaughnessy. [00:07:53][1.3]
Brenda Shaughnessy: [00:07:54] I have like a bunch of different notebooks. None of them know about each other. They're all just like, you know, writing one and they're not connected. I don't know what the ideas are. And then eventually I, like, pull them all together and like, put them all in one big notebook and then I lose that. [00:08:07][12.2]
Elena Passarello: [00:08:07] With music from Madison Cunningham and our fabulous house band. I'm your announcer Elena Passarello, and now the host of Live Wire Luke Burbank. [00:08:19][11.1]
Luke Burbank: [00:08:21] Hey, thank you so much, Elena Passarello. Thanks to everyone tuning in from all over the country, including in Hilton Head, South Carolina. Of course, we asked Live Wire listeners a question as we do each week. We asked, what is some gossip only you care about? This is related to Kelsey McKinney's hit podcast, Normal Gossip, which we're going to hear about. We're going to hear those responses in a minute. First, though, it's time for the best news we heard all week. (Jingle) This is our little reminder at the top of the show. There is some good news happening out there in the world. Elena, what is the best news you heard all week? [00:08:57][35.9]
Elena Passarello: [00:08:57] Okay. Heading over to Warren, Michigan, which isn't too far from Detroit. Last week, there was a bus traveling from some school in the Warren School District to, you know, a neighborhood. And the bus driver, you can see this on the security camera or the driver camera. The bus driver radios in to dispatch and says, I'm feeling really dizzy. I think I need to pull over. This bus is full of children, by the way. Maybe that's why she was feeling so dizzy. It's because it's full of seventh graders. [00:09:31][33.9]
Luke Burbank: [00:09:31] I've been on those busses before. [00:09:32][0.9]
Elena Passarello: [00:09:33] So you see her in the video, it's, kind of pass out. She loses consciousness before she has time to fully pull off of this multiple lane road that she's on. And the bus is still moving. And at that moment, seventh grader Dylan Reeves, who was sitting about five rows back, he throws down his knapsack and he runs to the front of the bus. And that's when he enters the purview of the camera. And you see him. First thing he does is he puts his hand on the steering wheel. He's still standing, you know, over the bus driver. And then he takes his left foot and he slowly steps on the foot brake. And then you see him looking around on the dashboard and he finds that kind of lever thing, I guess that to put it in the emergency brake and then with one hand still on the steering wheel, he turns around. This is this is a little bitty person, a little child, and he goes, call 911 right now. I don't care who does it. Call 911. And there are children shouting. And you can see, you know, the bus is moving through the windows of the door, but then you see it stop. And then within like a couple of minutes, the emergency services team had come and there was no damage to any of the kids. The bus driver is recovering at home. Even the bus didn't get damaged, which was a real surprise. And of course, they had a huge press conference where Dylan appeared with his parents and his mom was like, How did you do this? And Dylan was like, What are you talking about, mom? I watch her drive this bus every day. [00:10:55][82.1]
Luke Burbank: [00:10:56] And they're just going to say, I've been secretly driving our minivan, mom. [00:10:59][2.7]
Elena Passarello: [00:11:00] I know. I wondered if it was like one of those I mean, this is sort of not too far from Detroit, But if it was one of those kind of rural Michigan situations where everybody's driving a tractor by the time they're five, but that doesn't seem to be the case. I think he's just cool under pressure and observant. And it's really interesting to watch him in the camera because he just seems to be the type of person who's just logically going through the orders of like emergency response. It's really amazing. [00:11:22][22.3]
Luke Burbank: [00:11:23] Impressive. Some real Keanu Reeves and Sandra Bullock action. [00:11:26][2.7]
Elena Passarello: [00:11:26] He would not get either of those references because he was born in 2008. [00:11:30][3.9]
Luke Burbank: [00:11:32] That's a very good point. Speed was a movie that came out roughly 100 years ago about someone taking over a bus in case you're a you know, you're young. All right. The best news that I saw this week takes us over to Bristol, England, where you got a guy named Ben Coyles. He may not know about the movie speed either. He's only 22 years old and he's out pub hopping with his mates, trying to British it up. Yeah, but for his birthday. And he decides just to have some fun by dressing up like his favorite character in the world, which is, of course, Gandalf the Gray from Lord of the Rings. So they're apparently at their second to last pub. They're almost done with the with the pub crawl, and someone comes up and taps him on the shoulder and says, Hey, Gandalf, would you like to meet Gandalf? And he turns around and Sir Ian McKellen, the actual Gandalf from the movies is just standing there chilling. So they get these amazing selfies. They apparently actually hung out with Ian McKellen for a few minutes. [00:12:35][63.1]
Elena Passarello: [00:12:35] Oh, did they? What what like how did that get instigated, do you think? Ian McKellen was like, let's have some fun? You know. [00:12:42][6.4]
Luke Burbank: [00:12:43] It's not exactly described in this piece, but I've seen their views with Ian McKellen. He's just seems like such a game person that I would guess that if he saw someone walking on the street dressed up like Gandalf the Gray, he would go over and introduce himself just to make it a fun, memorable birthday. I'll tell you who would freak out over this would be my my dad and my brother, David. They actually went to New Zealand and went to all of the places where they filmed Lord of the Rings, including sneaking on various sheep farms that were not technically open and like talking their way into various, you know, locations and things. My dad also makes reproductions of the weapons from Lord of the Ring in his spare time. [00:13:23][40.2]
Elena Passarello: [00:13:24] Oh, we got to get Ian McKellen to go drink at a bar near your dad. [00:13:27][2.4]
Luke Burbank: [00:13:27] We can get him a Silver Veil. Washington. I think it'll be a big thrill for old Walt B. Anyway. Ian McKellen out there making people's birthday. That's the best news I saw this week. All right. Let's welcome our first guest on over to the show. She is a staff writer and co-founder of Defector Media, which is an employee owned sports and culture website. She's also the author of the critically acclaimed book God Spare the Girls. And she hosts the popular podcast Normal Gossip, which the New Yorker says evokes the thrill of sitting next to chatty, high drama strangers at a cafe. It's delicious. Take a listen to this. Our conversation with Kelsey McKinney recorded at Town Hall in Seattle. This is Live Wire. [00:14:13][45.7]
Kelsey McKinney: [00:14:22] Hello. Hi. Hello, Seattle. [00:14:23][1.8]
Luke Burbank: [00:14:24] Hello. Welcome. Okay. On your show, normal gossip. You always ask the guests what their relationship with gossip is. I'm curious. Before, you were doing an entire podcast about it, and it was, you know, kind of your identity in a way. What was your relationship with gossip? [00:14:41][17.4]
Kelsey McKinney: [00:14:43] So I grew up very evangelical and from the state of Texas, which is famously rather evangelical. And so I was brought up to believe that gossip was a sin and that it was something you should never do. And there was like very little distinction or wiggle room there. And so I kind of grew up anti gossip, which is extremely funny since now it's my entire life. [00:15:06][23.9]
Luke Burbank: [00:15:08] Yeah, I was I was reading that piece you wrote in The New York Times about this very thing about your childhood. And I noticed that you went to a nondenominational church, as I did. Oh, that's when you're dealing with the real there. Like, Yeah, Southern Baptist. A little too liberal. [00:15:22][14.2]
Kelsey McKinney: [00:15:23] Yeah. [00:15:23][0.0]
Luke Burbank: [00:15:23] Let's keep this non-denominational over here. Yeah. Can you explain for folks who haven't had a chance to hear yet the kind of format of the show? [00:15:30][7.2]
Kelsey McKinney: [00:15:31] Sure. Yeah. So I'm the host of a podcast called Normal Gossip. The way it works is someone comes on and I ask them about their relationship with gossip, and we have a brief conversation about what that looks like in their life. And then I tell them anonymized story, a gossip that we've collected from people in the real world. [00:15:49][18.0]
Luke Burbank: [00:15:49] Now, how are you getting these gossip stories that you're then kind of retelling? [00:15:53][4.0]
Kelsey McKinney: [00:15:54] Mm hmm. Yeah. We have a voice mailbox. We have a text like you can text to the voicemail number. We have an email. You can kind of tell the, like, level of gossip you're getting and the kind of person you're getting it from by the format they send it in. Right? So like, okay, Earth signs, they're sending like whole documents in the email, right? They're like, Here's all the evidence. Here are the photos, here's everything you need. But then you also have people that are like sending 17 Instagram, DM voice memos. [00:16:25][30.8]
Luke Burbank: [00:16:27] Some are just doing a B reel. Yeah, that's not enough information. Is there kind of like a never ending supply of this gossip? I mean, do you guys ever beaten the bushes to get more gossip? [00:16:37][10.4]
Kelsey McKinney: [00:16:38] No, I when we started the. So the podcast is a little over a year old and for the first season I was like begging people I was barely friends with to come on. And now I am terrified because I have just learned that most people in the world are just involved in some crazy stuff. And it's it's very scary, but also beautiful in a way. [00:17:01][23.2]
Luke Burbank: [00:17:02] Do you feel any responsibility, you and the producers of the show, to try to verify if the gossip is real or does that even matter if it's gossip? [00:17:09][7.4]
Kelsey McKinney: [00:17:10] Yeah, that's a really good question. So me and my producer, Alex Sujong Loughlin, we spend a lot of time trying to, like, get more information out of people. So often it depends on how many degrees of separation you have from the gossip, how much actual information you can get. [00:17:26][16.0]
Luke Burbank: [00:17:27] So you do a sort of an interview with the person who is sharing the gossip with you. And I assume you're just taking copious notes because, I mean, you have a lot of detail when you're telling this story. Now, back to whoever your guest is. You've really like, do you interview the gossiper multiple times? Like how do you get that engrained in a story about like a gay kickball team? [00:17:47][20.5]
Kelsey McKinney: [00:17:49] Yeah, welI part of my... [00:17:49][0.3]
Luke Burbank: [00:17:50] That's a real thing from the show, Not just a very weird example they come up with. [00:17:53][3.2]
Kelsey McKinney: [00:17:55] Part of my job, right, is to think about like, what are the motivations of these people and how do they behave. And so like, you would be really I am a trained reporter that is like what I my job is before this. And you would be just really surprised how much information exists if you're looking for it. Right. So people say, like, I went here and then I pull up photos of it and so then I can describe the place that they went. Right? And so there's like a lot of information that's tangential that you can get. [00:18:22][27.0]
Luke Burbank: [00:18:22] It comes through in the show. And I'm I'm glad to hear that. And also, of course, I mean, you're a reporter. You've been a reporter for many years. So you're applying that rigor to this, which makes it way better. [00:18:32][9.6]
Kelsey McKinney: [00:18:32] It's extremely ridiculous to be like, let me take all of my skills as a reporter and apply them to gossip stories I've obtained from a random people. [00:18:41][8.4]
Luke Burbank: [00:18:44] What's maybe like the wildest thing that's actually made it onto the show or what's something that really stands out as a a thing, a piece of gossip that was describing a certain behavior that really kind of blew your mind. [00:18:55][10.8]
Kelsey McKinney: [00:18:55] Ooh, that's a really good question. [00:18:57][1.5]
Luke Burbank: [00:18:58] Can I prompt you with one that I was just listening to recently? And it was some gossip involving some people that was for young women who really wanted to see One Direction, the band and and the two of the women couldn't get tickets, so they ended up finding this friend online and then getting tickets from them. But now they're going to. To hang out as a foursome and things go way wrong. [00:19:23][24.8]
Kelsey McKinney: [00:19:23] Yeah. [00:19:23][0.0]
Luke Burbank: [00:19:24] And again, I don't want to give away too much from the episode, but let's just say there's a point where someone's hiding an appliance in a hotel room for nefarious reasons. I mean. [00:19:33][9.0]
Kelsey McKinney: [00:19:34] I think it. One of the. Most jarring parts of this job is just realizing how many things people are doing that they think are totally reasonable but to everyone else, make no sense, rightly. It's like, why are you carrying a five foot tall bird lamp across three countries in South Asia? Like, you don't need to do that. You could just leave it there. [00:19:59][25.0]
Luke Burbank: [00:20:00] Okay. We're going to take a real quick break. But when we, come back. I want to talk also about your experience with Defector Media, which is, I think, a really cool media project that I've been personally really interested in since it got formed pretty recently. So we'll be back with more with Kelsey McKinney in a moment here on Live Wire. Welcome back to Live Wire from PRX. We are at Town Hall in Seattle this week. I'm Luke Burbank. I'm here with Elena Passarello. We're talking to Kelsey McKinney from the Normal Gossip podcast. I'm curious about the name. What's the origin of that? It raises the question the existence of normal gossip indicates the existence of abnormal gossip. [00:22:05][125.3]
Kelsey McKinney: [00:22:07] Yeah. Well, I think so, Yes. There is certainly abnormal gossip that exists. I think the direct parallel that we were kind of going for is celebrity gossip, which is what you usually hear, right? Like, oh, we have celebrity gossip on this topic or whatever. Really, the podcast is called Normal Gossip, because at some point in the past I tweeted, What if someone gave me a podcast called Normal Gossip, where I interviewed people who work at the Gap, and then everyone at my company yelled at me because they were like, Why would you put this good idea onto the internet for free when we could simply make it for the company that we all own together? So that's why it's called Normal Gossip. [00:22:44][37.8]
Luke Burbank: [00:22:45] I think it's smart, actually, because now you are running it through Defector and it's going really well. Yeah. Do you ever hear back from the people who are the subjects of the gossip, not the people who reached out to you, but the other people in the stories? [00:23:00][15.2]
Kelsey McKinney: [00:23:01] So, no, not yet. One thing that is extremely interesting about the show, so we anonymize every story, which means that we take the names and the locations and often like basic details and shift them to something that is similar but not quite exactly the same. So like an episode about knitting might have been originally about a different craft. Right. For example. And we will get emails from people that are like, That's my knitting club. And I'm like:1. I know for a fact it's not. 2. What's happening in your knitting club? [00:23:37][36.9]
Luke Burbank: [00:23:44] The other thing that you do when you're not hosting this podcast is you write for Defector. Now, Defector is a kind of a sports and culture website also. You do some great real estate reporting on there that I'm personally a fan of. [00:23:56][11.5]
Kelsey McKinney: [00:23:56] Thank you. [00:23:56][0.3]
Luke Burbank: [00:23:56] True story. But the whole creation of Defector and how you co-founded it with a bunch of your colleagues is a really wild story involving like a Hulk Hogan sex tape. [00:24:08][11.4]
Kelsey McKinney: [00:24:08] My trauma. [00:24:09][0.4]
Luke Burbank: [00:24:10] And you. [00:24:10][0.5]
Kelsey McKinney: [00:24:10] Let's do it. [00:24:11][0.6]
Luke Burbank: [00:24:11] Peter Thiel. You know, this kind of like Silicon Valley guy who had it out for Gawker Media because he felt like they had been critical of him. I mean, for people that don't know, is there a succinct way to describe the elements that that came together for this? [00:24:25][14.1]
Kelsey McKinney: [00:24:25] Sure, yeah. Let me give you the version I gave my therapist, which is that Deadspin used to be owned by Gawker Media, which is a company that was driven into the ground when Peter Thiel sued them straight into the ground. [00:24:37][11.5]
Luke Burbank: [00:24:38] Sued them on behalf of he basically funded Hulk Hogan... [00:24:41][3.1]
Kelsey McKinney: [00:24:42] Yeah [00:24:42][0.0]
Luke Burbank: [00:24:44] The wrestler. I just want to be clear with these public radio listeners that Hulk Hogan sued Kelsey's Company. [00:24:49][5.5]
Kelsey McKinney: [00:24:50] Yes. And the real thing, like all rich people, hated Gawker because Gawker wanted to just talk sh*t all the time. And they don't like that. But Deadspin lived after that. And because of the Peter Thiel suing, they ran out of money. The company got sold to, like a private equity firm. And then a man became in charge of it. And he, you know, just basically tried to interfere with every aspect of the company and take away the things that were good about it. And that kind of came to a head. I know it was Halloween because the room that I walked into right before we all mass quit was covered in fake blood. [00:25:31][41.0]
Luke Burbank: [00:25:33] A little on the nose I'd say [00:25:33][0.9]
Kelsey McKinney: [00:25:34] Little a little strong by the writers. Yeah, we we all quit essentially because it up with is that the entire team decided, you know, we would rather not have jobs and not work in media than work for this man. [00:25:48][13.5]
Luke Burbank: [00:25:48] That's a I mean, that's the kind of thing that in the movie makes sense. But when it's your real life and you really have your bills to pay and stuff, I mean, that must have been a really intense and bonding moment for all of you to say. We are willing to walk away from our profession right now to no longer work for this this company. [00:26:06][17.8]
Kelsey McKinney: [00:26:07] It's funny because in retrospect, it feels very strange to think about the fact that we were all on the phone with our spouses being like, Yeah, um, actually we're all going to quit. We're all quitting. Like, that's very scary. But at the time it just felt like there was no other option. [00:26:22][15.7]
Luke Burbank: [00:26:23] Well, the other. [00:26:24][0.4]
Kelsey McKinney: [00:26:24] Awkward trauma bonded together. Right now we have a company, right? [00:26:27][2.6]
Luke Burbank: [00:26:27] Well, yeah. Had the other option was that a number of you then came together to basically make this new thing Defector. Yeah. Which does a lot of what Deadspin did and a lot of other cool new stuff, like normal gossip podcast. How is it going now that you have your own thing like that? You're the boss of, you know, how do you complain about your management style of yourself? Yeah. [00:26:51][23.8]
Kelsey McKinney: [00:26:52] It's really funny because people are always like, Who's your boss? And I'm like, work cooperatively owned organization. I don't have a boss. And they're like, But who tells you what to do? And I'm like, No. And so I think like, we don't complain about it because we have a lot of meetings where people talk about their feelings and then we try to turn those into policies for the company, which is complicated in its own way. But there's a lot of freedom in working as a small business owner and being able to say like we are all in an equally powerful position and everyone's opinion matters, right, Which is not common. [00:27:28][36.1]
Luke Burbank: [00:27:32] Well, I'm a subscriber and I love what you guys are doing over Defector would recommend. Do you think there is some kind of evolutionary argument for gossip? [00:27:40][7.6]
Kelsey McKinney: [00:27:41] So this is a question that's better for a evolutionary psychologist than me. [00:27:45][4.3]
Luke Burbank: [00:27:46] We actually have one backstage now. [00:27:48][2.1]
Kelsey McKinney: [00:27:49] So, yes, there's a huge, huge argument for gossip as a part of evolutionary psychology in that, like our groups that we interacted with used to be smaller. And part of the way that you communicate to each other that like someone is unsafe or something as simple as like someone has food is a form of gossip, right? Because like when we use the word gossip, we are slotting in a lot of other words underneath it. So gossip in its definition is just two people talking about someone else who isn't there. So like, if you and I talk about Joe Biden right now, technically underneath the definition of gossip, that's gossip. So many of the things that. [00:28:31][42.0]
Luke Burbank: [00:28:31] You hear, he and his wife order the same thing when they go out for dinner. That was in The Washington Post last week. And I find it. [00:28:38][7.0]
Elena Passarello: [00:28:38] Pasta. [00:28:38][0.0]
Luke Burbank: [00:28:39] Upsetting. [00:28:39][0.0]
Kelsey McKinney: [00:28:40] Yeah. And that's gossip. [00:28:41][1.0]
Elena Passarello: [00:28:42] Why? [00:28:42][0.0]
Luke Burbank: [00:28:44] Because then you only know about one of the entrees in total between the two people. But what if they've been there before? Like, it wasn't Arby's. [00:28:53][9.4]
Elena Passarello: [00:28:55] But Arby's only has one. [00:28:57][1.1]
Luke Burbank: [00:28:57] They have the meats. I'm sorry, Kelsey. We're digressing. [00:28:59][2.0]
Kelsey McKinney: [00:29:00] I love it. Yeah. [00:29:01][0.6]
Luke Burbank: [00:29:01] What else? So that was us gossiping about Joe and Jill Biden, I guess. [00:29:04][3.2]
Kelsey McKinney: [00:29:05] Yeah, I guess so. [00:29:05][0.7]
Luke Burbank: [00:29:06] But. But there is. There is. We don't even have to be a scientist to imagine that when we were living in a different sort of situation, knowing things about other members of the so-called tribe. [00:29:16][10.5]
Kelsey McKinney: [00:29:17] Yeah. I mean, that could be. [00:29:18][0.8]
Luke Burbank: [00:29:19] Really useful to staying alive. [00:29:19][0.4]
Kelsey McKinney: [00:29:19] It's still true. Right. Like you talk to an intern at any company, they can tell you who is bad, right? They can. And like, that is useful information that keeps people safe to be able to say, like this person, I wouldn't be alone with them. Mm hmm. That's gossip. But it's also a form of, like, safety that you're creating for other people with less power. [00:29:40][21.0]
Elena Passarello: [00:29:41] It's like a network of communication below. The thing that everyone has agreed is, like, the establishment network of communication. [00:29:48][7.2]
Kelsey McKinney: [00:29:49] Yeah, exactly. And something that I think about a lot is that, like, you've kind of leveled the platform with the existence of social media. Right. So like, as people can speak to a giant platform without having any authority or power, technically, quote unquote, you've created a situation in which people can quote unquote, cancel you. But it's like it's actually just that they have the ability to speak now. Right. You have created a gossip mill that now exists for everyone, whereas before that gossip mill was 100 people. The people that you know. [00:30:22][32.8]
Luke Burbank: [00:30:23] Now that you're getting so many submissions, do you have to turn things down sometimes because they're like, too mean? [00:30:27][4.6]
Kelsey McKinney: [00:30:28] Yes. [00:30:28][0.0]
Luke Burbank: [00:30:29] Would you like to share some of those here on Live Wire? We'll take your we'll take your leftovers. [00:30:35][5.0]
Kelsey McKinney: [00:30:36] Would I like to? Yes. Can I? No. [00:30:36][0.6]
Luke Burbank: [00:30:38] But there are things that you're like. That's pretty juicy, but it's actually just straight up too mean it wouldn't be fun. [00:30:43][5.6]
Kelsey McKinney: [00:30:44] Yeah. We were recording an episode for the new season this week, and we were doing our, like, run through, and I was joking. I was like, We want all this, all the stories to be toxic but toxic the way that like wine is toxic to humans, which is like just a very minimal amount, right? We want it. We want the people in it to behave poorly. But you can like house it and live? [00:31:09][25.3]
Elena Passarello: [00:31:10] Right, right, right, right, right, right. [00:31:11][1.4]
Luke Burbank: [00:31:11] You know, it's not great for you, but it's making the next 2 hours of your life amazing, right? [00:31:16][4.4]
Kelsey McKinney: [00:31:16] Like, you would have to consume a lot of it to feel bad. Right. [00:31:18][2.3]
Luke Burbank: [00:31:19] Right. That's a good that's actually it's a good life lesson right there. Everybody check out the Normal Gossip Podcast and check out Defector Media as well. Kelsey McKinney, thank you so much for joining us tonight. That was Kelsey McKinney right here on Live Wire. You can listen to Normal Gossip wherever you get your podcasts. And also Normal Gossip is going out on tour. So you can catch Kelsey in a town near you. And if you'd like to hear even more of our chat with Kelsey, head over to our podcast feed to hear a special Live Wire Extra, where we had Kelsey offer us some gossip etiquette. And she really knows her stuff. So make sure you check that out. Live Wire is brought to you in part by Alaska Airlines. Alaska Airlines offers the most nonstop from the West Coast, including destinations like Hawaii, Palm Springs and San Francisco. And as a member of the OneWorld alliance, Alaska Airlines can connect you to more than 1000 destinations worldwide with their global partners. Learn more at Alaska Air dot com. This is Live Wire. Of course, each week on the show we ask our listeners a question. In honor of the Normal Gossip podcast, we asked our listeners. What is some gossip only you care about? Elaina has been collecting up those responses. What are you seeing? [00:32:46][87.0]
Elena Passarello: [00:32:47] Well, I actually very much care about this story from Tyler. Tyler says, My son and I saw his teacher shopping at the grocery store and it was like spotting a celebrity. We followed her all around the store to get a look in her cart. All she bought was toilet paper and wine, y'all. I love the idea that just of the kid becoming fascinated and following the teacher around, but the dad being like, Let's go. [00:33:15][28.3]
Luke Burbank: [00:33:16] I guess it doesn't wear off in adulthood because I remember being a kid. And if you see your teacher outside of the school context, it's like a unicorn. It's like you were observing a magical being somehow. But it sounds like Tyler still feels that way even in adulthood. [00:33:29][12.9]
Elena Passarello: [00:33:30] I wonder if my students feel that way when they see me, like buying like hard cider and cat litter in my pajamas on a Saturday night at like 10 p.m.. [00:33:39][9.0]
Luke Burbank: [00:33:40] Preserve the mystery, Elena. Preserve the mystique. [00:33:41][1.9]
Elena Passarello: [00:33:42] I should, I should. [00:33:42][0.5]
Luke Burbank: [00:33:43] What's some other gossip that our listeners think maybe only they care about. [00:33:46][2.8]
Elena Passarello: [00:33:47] Here's something great from Raina. Raina's gossip that Raina cares about is anything that happens to my hairdresser's kids. I don't know if you know this. I know you're a big fan of the quick Supercuts cut, right? Like, that's kind of your. [00:34:00][13.3]
Luke Burbank: [00:34:00] I go to a place called Rudy's here in Portland. But it's it's definitely pretty pretty, pretty quick and efficient. [00:34:06][5.9]
Elena Passarello: [00:34:07] When you're a lady, especially if you're a lady who's doing like color things. You are stuck in that chair for a long time. I think in some ways a great hairdresser has to keep you entertained. And I also get a lot of gossip from the person who cuts my hair, Britney. She doesn't have kids, but it is great when they have, like, really juicy lives to talk about. It's like a soap opera and you get your hair done. [00:34:28][21.2]
Luke Burbank: [00:34:28] What's more important that they're good at the the cutting and the coloring of the hair or that they have good stories. [00:34:33][4.5]
Elena Passarello: [00:34:34] I definitely the hair skills, although imagine being so good at the storytelling part that people didn't give a crap what their hair looked like afterward. [00:34:41][6.8]
Luke Burbank: [00:34:41] That would be my only chance because I know nothing about cutting hair, but I can spin an okay yarn. That would be my that would be my differentiator. [00:34:47][5.8]
Elena Passarello: [00:34:48] I do remember you cutting your hair over Zoom during the pandemic. [00:34:51][3.0]
Luke Burbank: [00:34:53] That actually turned out better than I was expecting. It's fairly straightforward. You sort of pull it up in a kind of a mohawk and you just kind of clipped the top. Also, no one was seeing me IRL for like years, so. [00:35:04][11.4]
Elena Passarello: [00:35:05] That's right. The stakes were low. [00:35:06][1.0]
Luke Burbank: [00:35:07] Stakes were very low. All right. One more piece of gossip that one of our listeners is particularly interested in. [00:35:11][4.8]
Elena Passarello: [00:35:12] Here's one from Paula. Paula says, I love hearing all the local beef on the neighborhood watch apps. [00:35:18][5.2]
Luke Burbank: [00:35:18] Those are those are hit and miss. Those are those neighborhood watch apps. I mean, they can be entertaining. They can also be a little a little toxic at times. [00:35:27][8.8]
Elena Passarello: [00:35:28] Oh, yeah. Yeah. I feel like they only exist for gossip purposes and I've never been mentioned on them, although I follow mine religiously. Except for recently someone was like this huge gray cat won't leave my lawn. And I was like that's my cat! He's famous. [00:35:43][14.5]
Luke Burbank: [00:35:45] It's like seeing your teacher outside of school. You're like, I know a famous person. [00:35:47][2.6]
Elena Passarello: [00:35:48] That's right. He was buying toilet paper and wine. [00:35:50][1.5]
Luke Burbank: [00:35:50] I don't have neighborhood at my house, but I do have neighbors that text me constantly, but they don't talk to each other. So they'll text me like my one neighbor texted me the other day, Your yard's on fire. And it was that the other neighbor was just burning some, you know, like rubbish. But from my one neighbor's perspective, it looked like my yard was on fire. [00:36:11][20.6]
Elena Passarello: [00:36:11] Do they not talk to each other because of beef or just because they don't know each other? [00:36:14][2.8]
Luke Burbank: [00:36:15] I don't think so. I just they just haven't gotten around to it. But I am the the interlocutor between the two, so I had to text Bob to ask if he had a fire because Brian told me my yard was on fire. And that's the gossip only I care about. Is my yard on fire or not? All right. Thanks to everyone who responded to our listener question. We've got another one for next week's show coming up at the end of today's program. So stick around for that. In the meantime. Our next guest is the author of seven poetry collections, including The Octopus Museum, which was a New York Times notable book. Her latest collection, Tanya, pays tribute to her literary heritage of women writers and mentors while grappling with the ongoing mysteries of love, art and loss. Take a listen to Brenda Shaughnessy, recorded at Town Hall in Seattle. Right here on my way. Hi there. Welcome to Live Wire. [00:37:11][56.6]
Brenda Shaughnessy: [00:37:12] It's great to be here. Thanks for having me. [00:37:13][1.6]
Luke Burbank: [00:37:14] You were born in Okinawa, and then you grew up in Southern California. Is that right? Yes. What was the role, if any, that poetry had in your life when you were growing up? Was it around? Did you think about poetry? [00:37:24][9.9]
Brenda Shaughnessy: [00:37:26] No. I think maybe it's the absence, the total absence of poetry that made me, once I saw it, I had to go toward it. The poetry. Like germs started because I was born far away in a different place with a different language to a mother who spoke a different language. And I think it's some of that tension with language and immigration and spaces and home that I think when I first saw poetry in, say, seventh grade, 10th grade, 11th grade school curriculum, yeah, I think something in me thought like this is sort of not normal conversation. Not normal talk. [00:38:03][37.5]
Elena Passarello: [00:38:04] Mm hmm. [00:38:04][0.2]
Luke Burbank: [00:38:05] Can you tell us a little bit about Tanya, who this book is named for? Was a college roommate? [00:38:09][4.3]
Brenda Shaughnessy: [00:38:10] Yeah. So Tanya is the name of the book. There's a person in my in my history who is my University of California Santa Cruz roommate. My first year, I mean, we sort of met each other. We were 18 years old. I was desperate to become a poet, and she was desperate to become a sculptor. So the whole book is really not about Tanya. It's about sometimes the person who mentors you or the person that shows you what the possibilities are is like a kid, like you, just a peer. A person who also wants to be an artist. And it blew me away. And we haven't spoken in over 30 years. I've completely lost her. So this is kind of my way of maybe trying to find her. [00:38:53][42.9]
Luke Burbank: [00:38:54] It's a pretty good way. [00:38:55][0.7]
Elena Passarello: [00:38:56] Yeah. [00:38:56][0.0]
Luke Burbank: [00:38:57] I mean, it's a beautiful book. It's right there on the cover. I mean, this is a real bat signal for Tanya. [00:39:03][5.5]
Brenda Shaughnessy: [00:39:05] I wonder, maybe she's still mad at me and then she. I won't hear from her, but I kind of hope I hear from her. But the trick is that there's she's not really about her. She's hardly in the book. Right. [00:39:14][9.1]
Elena Passarello: [00:39:14] Because it goes on to talk about, like all of these other ways that women influence other women mentors, many different kind of Tanya's. Yeah. Show up over the course of the book. [00:39:24][9.7]
Brenda Shaughnessy: [00:39:24] Yeah, it's mostly about mentorship between women. And so there's a sort of a long piece in here called Coursework, which is about the first literature teacher I had in college. You kind of taught me how to read, and I don't know if many of you had this moment where you're just a regular reader in your life and then suddenly you read something and someone shows it to you, someone opens it up for you and says, Look at that, look at that. This means that this could be that. And you go, It's a universe. And all I wanted was to be in one and to continue to be one and then make my own. I mean, it just it was a teacher who did that. You know, it was it was a literature teacher who taught me how to read deeper, you know, beyond comprehension and beyond just mere literacy. But to teach me how what literature could do. I mean, it's art. So this is really a love letter to artists, to teachers. [00:40:12][48.3]
Luke Burbank: [00:40:14] Did you take pieces of art and write? Your your sort of response to those pieces, Like there's a there's a poem in there which is, I believe, referring to a painting, or at least, you know, the piece that you're citing is a painting. Yes. How did you kind of get this conversation going with these other these other people and other things? [00:40:33][18.8]
Brenda Shaughnessy: [00:40:33] Yes. So a lot of the poems in this book are also called Acrostic Poems. And those are poems that are written upon the encounter with a piece of visual art, or it can be other any kind of art, but it's a it's a cool, I think, of acrostic poems as being a kind of translation of visual art. So it's a whole other sort of version of it. But mostly it's, it's describing an encounter. So there are several of these pieces. I think there are ten, and some of them are commissions for museums or for pieces are for publications. There's a piece about Meret Oppenheim's Fur Teacup, and that was the commission from MoMA. Mm hmm. So in many ways, it's a response to a I mean, someone asked me to write on it, so I gave you a filthy poem because you asked me and sort of make it my own. [00:41:15][42.5]
Luke Burbank: [00:41:16] Can we hear some poetry from the book? Yeah. [00:41:19][2.6]
Brenda Shaughnessy: [00:41:20] This is in the long poem, the title poem called Tanya. And it's just a brief excerpt because the poem is 54 pages long and I'm not going to read it or make. Now number seven. If you scratch the surface of writing, you chip the letters right off the page, which erases them. You can't go deeper materially to absorb words. You must lower a sensory organ into it and let it stew and steep until the meaning is leached from the page and disperse through your eyes, Pouring a meaning tea into your brain or some unknown part of your brain is language spoken only in one area. Why doesn't language know the ways other parts of the brain communicate? Why does language stop it itself? Stubborn tourist poetry is allowed to follow the self in thoughts on its way to the body it lives in and the bodies and minds of those who might read it. This opening, this lit path gives the impression poetry is trusted and will be given access. But each threshold and gate, each bower and gazebo, each bedside and website has a new password poetry may not know. Poetry may have forgotten. The body is an anemone creature who knows when to hold them, knows when to fold them, and does not gamble like a gambler who learns hit me literally and is open to losing his home, His aim, Last dime, last name. The body does not just let any poetry in. Mostly just lets it play in the yard of the head like a squirrel. What if the wheel of fortune was a harmless clock and there was no marking or measurement or tempo, no documentation on the face of it, just spinning freely downhill arms pin wheeling like the button wheel pinned to a teepee to a car made by a child pipe cleaner axles. The thing everyone says about the Wheel of Fortune is that you must somehow climb to the center. Sit right on the pin so you don't get crushed when the wheel edges down. So you don't drink all the champagne when it's up. And yet time's arms stretch out to the clock's edge. Minute hand reaching hard. The hour hand more tentative thinking. Do I really want to change? [00:43:42][141.8]
Luke Burbank: [00:43:46] Brenda Shaughnessy here on Live Wire, reading from her new book, Tanya. [00:43:49][3.2]
Elena Passarello: [00:43:56] This just made me think of something that you said like 5 minutes ago about that first literature teacher mentor who showed you that that works of literature can be universes. And that was such a universe. And this is your seventh book. And so you've made seven universes with their own universes inside them. And I just wonder, after doing this seven times, how do you how do you make space to make sure that universe is itself on its own terms, You know, like dealing with you as a poet at the place where you are now? [00:44:26][30.0]
Brenda Shaughnessy: [00:44:27] I don't know. It's not really a seven time's the charm thing, you know, It's sort of like I think it's just that every time I write a new poem, it just feels like another chance to do something. I have never to think about something I've never thought of before. You know, that's the cool thing about poetry and writing poetry is that you don't have to know anything. You have to be you don't have to do, like, really know how to do it. You just have to, like, think your ideas and then kind of like, zhuzh them a little bit, you know, kind of make them so that so that they're interesting and they butt up against other interesting ways. And so this piece, I don't know I mean, the last book I wrote was called The Octopus Museum, and it was a sort of imaginary museum of the octopuses that took over the human race and now made a museum of us that was all like fragments of the extinct humanity. That was last universe. You know, this one is I wanted to write, I guess. I guess I would call this an anongraphy. I'm not sure if that really works as a thing that it is, but it's not a biography. It's not real. Tanya is a figment. She's an idea. She's a memory. And the whole point about poetry is we have this life that we live moment by moment, and then some of it stays in our memory and then we sort of cherish those memories. But then those go to the kids grow up, they go and the moment is gone and suddenly you find yourself being like, Was that ten years ago? Elena was it ten years ago? I think it was, yeah, 12 years ago, something like that. And then suddenly you're like, I didn't write anything down. I don't have a record of anything. What happens? What did I think? So this is sort of like what happened over the past few years. [00:46:08][100.8]
Luke Burbank: [00:46:09] We're talking to Brenda Shaughnessy about her latest book, Tanya here on Live Wire from PRX. We're at town hall this week in Seattle. I'm always curious about the the actual writing process for poets, because I feel like if you're writing nonfiction, there's a fairly straightforward plan. You collect all the information and you start to sift through it and make some meaning out of it. And if you're writing fiction, it's like, get this number of pages in a day or whatever. How does it work for you when you're creating something like this book? [00:46:36][26.7]
Brenda Shaughnessy: [00:46:36] Tanya It's just desperation. It's like it's like grab whatever pen. Like is it, you know, what time is it? You know, like it's just if it just feels like a very desperate thing because life is so much, you know, the the, the routine that we have to get done. The thing you have to do over and over and over again is repetition, a kind of a slog. And so the desperate reach for like a moment of clarity or a moment of spark. So, yeah, I have like a bunch of different notebooks. None of them know about each other. They're all just like, you know, writing one and they're not connected. I don't know what the ideas are. And then eventually I, like, pull them all together and like, put them all in one big notebook and then I lose that, you know, It's just like my process is disasters seven times. Hasn't really helped. Maybe eight times. The next book, I don't know. [00:47:29][52.6]
Elena Passarello: [00:47:29] That's strangely comforting to me. Yeah. [00:47:32][2.5]
Brenda Shaughnessy: [00:47:33] I mean, it's just a disorganized mind, but that's why I write it down to try to figure out how to make some semblance of order. [00:47:40][6.8]
Luke Burbank: [00:47:41] Now, you've mentioned that this book is named Tanya. It's not necessarily about Tanya, but also, who knows? Maybe Tanya will see it. Are you hoping actually to hear back from her? [00:47:51][9.7]
Brenda Shaughnessy: [00:47:51] Totally. I'm totally hoping to hear back from my old friend, of course, but I respect it if she's still mad at me, you know, I mean, I sort of I sort of a hint at why we sort of had our breakup. And it's really just like, you know, it was hard to change. And you kind of fuze a little bit when you're that young in your close, as you know, as roommates and buddies and a little bit sexual. And it was a little bit, you know, judgmental and messy. And that's that time that was that time of being sort of 18 years old, 19 years old. It's that will that defined it. But this is also a book about coming into your own sense of what you who you're hanging out with, who your friends are, who does that make you and and what are you opening up into? I feel like Tanya was the first artist friend I had, and this book is about so many different kinds of artists that I it kind of feels like it roots back to her. [00:48:42][50.5]
Luke Burbank: [00:48:43] Well, I hope you you do hear back from her and I hope she gives you the response you're hoping for, whatever that might be. [00:48:50][7.3]
Brenda Shaughnessy: [00:48:51] Yeah, that's a lot of like sort of hopes within hopes that. It could fall apart. [00:48:55][3.9]
Luke Burbank: [00:48:56] That's really the name of my poetry book. Hopes Within Hopes The Luke Burbank story currently seeking a publisher. Brenda Shaughnessy The book isTanya. Thank you so much for coming on Live Wire. That was Brenda Shaughnessy. Her latest collection of poetry is titled Tanya, and it's available now. I'm Luke Burbank, here with Elena Passarello. You are listening to Live Wire Radio. We've got to take a quick break. But don't go anywhere. When we come back, we're going to hear some music from Grammy winner Madison Cunningham. Stay with us. Welcome back to Live Wire from PRX. I'm Luke Burbank, here with Elena Passarello. Before we get to our music, a little preview of next week's program. We are going to be talking about the nineties. Remember them Elena CD? Oh yeah. Dial up internet. Pauly Shore was everywhere. [00:51:01][125.5]
Elena Passarello: [00:51:03] Is everywhere. [00:51:03][0.2]
Luke Burbank: [00:51:03] It was the decade of Pauly Shore. [00:51:05][1.7]
Elena Passarello: [00:51:06] We's in the juice. [00:51:06][0.1]
Luke Burbank: [00:51:07] That's right. We's in the juice. It's also the subject of Chuck Klosterman latest book, which is aptly titled The Nineties. It was an instant New York Times bestseller. And in it, Chuck takes a deep dive into why the culture and pop culture of the 1990s actually really mattered. And also how his kind of nineties slacker ethos made him embarrassed to succeed as a writer. He was unsuccessful in not succeeding as a writer, though, because he's a very, he's a. Very popular writer. We've also got a very special musical appearance from the international rock Band Making Movies. They blew away the crowd at Revolution Hall in Portland when they played our show. And as always, we're gonna be looking to get your answers to our listener question. Elena What are we asking the Live Wire listeners for next week's show? [00:51:50][43.5]
Elena Passarello: [00:51:51] We want to keep it nineties and ask what thing from the nineties are you the most nostalgic for? [00:51:56][4.9]
Luke Burbank: [00:51:56] My hairline? [00:51:56][0.2]
Elena Passarello: [00:51:57] Like, Yeah, I'm. I'm nostalgic for the way that I looked in the nineties clothes that are back in style again. Now that I'm 45, I can still buy chokers or straight leg jeans, but the effect is a little different. [00:52:09][12.1]
Luke Burbank: [00:52:09] My daughter was wearing JNCO jeans to a recent Live Wire recording. [00:52:13][3.9]
Elena Passarello: [00:52:14] Oh no. That's the Y2K coming to rear its ugly head. [00:52:17][2.9]
Luke Burbank: [00:52:18] It's coming back, my friend. If you have an answer to our listener question, hit us up on Twitter or Facebook. We are at Live Wire Radio. Our musical guest this week is an American singer, songwriter, guitarist and Grammy winner. Rolling Stone described her music as a new spin on West Coast folk rock. Her latest album is Revealer. This is Madison Cunningham, recorded at Town Hall in Seattle here on Live Wire. What song are we going to hear? [00:52:51][33.2]
Madison Cunningham: [00:52:52] This one is called Broken Harvest. [00:52:53][1.1]
Luke Burbank: [00:52:54] All right. This is Madison Cunningham here on Livewire. [00:52:55][1.7]
Madison Cunningham: [00:53:09] Round and round this broken rat race, I'm moving and stoppin and, Window shopping for love, For fame, for anything that would take me. And when I'm done digging up space, Well I'm coming home late to a dirty place, Half away, the broom, the rake, Take the kid out of me. Just say the word, Just say the word and I'll give it up, Word and I'll hang it up. What do I know, What do I hold that will not fade away, All things fade away. Where will I be, The crop and the wheat, Beast and fade away, All things fade away. Putting on a business coat, For the tear in the jeans, the hole in the boat, To make the burden float, To pay in full this time. When you're living on a dreamers salary, A broken harvest feels like robbery, What do I thos for, If it's just gonna pour out easily. You see me there, Climbing the stairs begging for air, And not coming up, I'm not coming up. What do I know (what do I know), What do I own that will not fade away, All things fade away. Where will I be (where will I be), The fruit and the tree, Thirst and fade away, All things fade away. All things fade away, All things fade away. All things (all things) fade away (fade away), All things (all things) fade away (fade away). All things fade away. All things.(Thank you) [00:53:09][0.6]
Luke Burbank: [00:57:27] That was Madison Cunningham right here on Live Wire. Her album, Revealer is out now. That's going to do it for this week's episode of the show. A huge thanks to our guests Kelsey McKinney, Brenda Shaughnessy and Madison Cunningham. Live Wire is brought to you in part by Alaska Airlines. [00:57:47][19.8]
Elena Passarello: [00:57:48] Laura Hadden is our executive producer. Heather de Michele is our executive director. Our producer and editor is Melanie Sevcenko. Our assistant editor is Trey Hester, our marketing and production manager is Paige Thomas. Our production fellow is Tanvi Kumar. And Yasamin Mehdian is our intern. Our house band is Ethan Fox Tucker, Sam Tucker, Ayal Alves and A. Walker Spring, who also composes our music. Molly Pettit is our technical director and our House Sound is by D. Neil Blake. [00:58:12][24.3]
Luke Burbank: [00:58:12] Additional funding provided by the Oregon Arts Commission, a state agency funded by the State of Oregon and the National Endowment for the Arts. Live Wire was created by Robin Tenenbaum and Kate Sokoloff. This week. We'd like to thank members Marla and Peter Vik of Hillsboro, Oregon. For more information about our show or how you can listen to our podcast, head on over to Live Wire Radio dot org. I'm Luke Burbank for Elena Passarello and the whole Live Wire crew. Thank you for listening and we will see you next week. [00:58:38][26.1]
[00:58:57] PRX. [00:58:57][0.0]
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