Episode 584
with Aparna Nancherla, Gary Gulman, and No-No Boy
Comedian and writer Aparna Nancherla discusses her memoir Unreliable Narrator and why her mother made her order pizza to combat her shyness; stand-up comedian Gary Gulman riffs on the false notion of dangerous scissors in elementary school; singer-songwriter and historian No-No Boy performs his song "1603," featured on his latest album Empire Electric, which tells the story of the first non-Native sighting of Oregon by a multicultural crew of sailors who fell through the cracks of history. Plus, host Luke Burbank and announcer Elena Passarello learn about the times our listeners suffered from impostor syndrome.
Aparna Nancherla
Comedian and Author
Aparna is an established comedian, actor and writer who performs all over the place. Her book of personal essays, Unreliable Narrator, will be out on September 19, 2023 from Viking Press. Aparna's had half hour comedy specials on both Netflix and Comedy Central, as well as making multiple appearances on late night. She can currently be seen on The Drop, Lopez Vs. Lopez, Search Party, and Space Force, among myriad other guest appearances. Aparna’s voice can be heard in many animated series including The Great North, Bob's Burgers, and Bojack Horseman. She was a series regular on Comedy Central’s Corporate and she made her feature debut in the Paul Feig movie, A Simple Favor. Aparna's also written for Mythic Quest, Late Night with Seth Meyers, and Totally Biased With W. Kamau Bell. Most importantly, she is available for couch sitting.
Gary Gulman
Comedian and Author
Gary Gulman is one of the most popular touring comics, selling out theaters nationwide including Carnegie Hall. He has been a guest on every major late-night comedy program. Gulman’s four comedy specials include HBO's The Great Depresh, a highly acclaimed look at mental illness. In 2019 he appeared in the international blockbuster Joker. He has a recurring role on the Hulu comedy series Life & Beth. A product of Boston, Gulman was previously a scholarship college football player, an accountant, and a high-school teacher. "Misfit: Growing Up Awkward in the '80s” is his first book.
No-No Boy
Musician and Historian
No-No Boy tells stories rooted in years of research and relationship-building, made vibrant and profound through a rich congregation of instrumental, environmental, and electronically manipulated sounds from Asia and America. The project developed as the central component of Julian Saporiti’s PhD at Brown University, drawing on years of fieldwork and research on Asian American history to write folk songs with uncommon empathy and remarkable protagonists: prisoners at Japanese American internment camps who started a jazz band, Vietnamese musicians turned on to rock ‘n’ roll by American troops, a Cambodian American painter who painted only the most beautiful landscapes of his war-torn home. Along the way he started to draw on his own family’s history, including his mother’s escape from Vietnam during the war. His 2021 album 1975 was called "a remarkably powerful and moving album,” by Folk Alley and “gentle, catchy and accessible folk songs that feel instantly familiar," by NPR. His third album, "Empire Electric", further examines narratives of imperialism, identity, and spirituality, and is being released by Smithsonian Folkways.
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Luke Burbank: Hey there, Elena.
Elena Passarello: Hey, Luke. How's it going?
Luke Burbank: Going absolutely great this week. It's time, though, for that thing. We're all waiting for a little round of Station Location Identification Examination. Are you ready?
Elena Passarello: I am ready.
Luke Burbank: All right. This is where I quiz Elena on a place in the country where Live Wire is on the radio. She got to figure out where we are talking about. I have a feeling you may be able to solve this one. Let's start with the sort of slightly more obscure hint. This city is recognized as a tree city USA. It has at least 47 public parks within and adjacent to the city limits. I guess that's what makes you a Tree City USA.
Elena Passarello: Hmm. Yeah, well, there must be many tree cities.
Luke Burbank: There are. And this one meets the meets the minimum definition of Tree City.
Elena Passarello: Pretty big if it has 47.
Luke Burbank: Or they just love their trees. How about this? This is the one that might give it away for you. The city was once the home of a place called Juicy's Outlaw Grill, which holds the Guinness World Record for the world's largest commercially available and expensive hamburgers. You could buy 777 pound hamburgers for $5,000. Sadly, it has since closed. But back when they were doing this, you had to call them 48 hours in advance to come get one of these insane hamburgers from Juicy's Outlaw Grill.
Elena Passarello: Well, now I'm confused.
Luke Burbank: Oh.
Elena Passarello: Yeah. Okay. What's the third?
Luke Burbank: Okay, this one. This one is really going to bring it home. The name of this city comes from the Latin phrase Heart of the Valley.
Elena Passarello: Well, that means it's my town. Corvallis, Oregon.
Luke Burbank: Exactly where we're on KOAC in Corvallis, Oregon.
Elena Passarello: How—how do we have 47 parks?
Luke Burbank: Take it up with the Tree City USA, people.
Elena Passarello: What?
Luke Burbank: How did you not know about Juicy's Outlaw Grill is the real question.
Elena Passarello: That was the thing that confused me because I knew about Juicy's Outlaw Grill. But these 47 parks, I mean, this is what happens when you're a writer and you just never go outside. Like you have no idea.
Luke Burbank: Well, we'll research and get back to everyone next week. In the meantime, congratulations. You got it. And shout out to everyone listening in Elena's adopted hometown of Corvallis, Oregon. Should we get to it?
Elena Passarello: Let's do it.
Luke Burbank: All right. Take it away.
Elena Passarello: From PRX, it's Live Wire. This week, comedian and author Aparna Nancherla.
Aparna Nancherla: Okay if my self-doubt has so much to say, why doesn't it do some work for once, you know?
Elena Passarello: And standup comedy from Gary Gulman.
Gary Gulman: You're more likely to be Jesus Christ himself than you are to make the Hockey Hall of Fame. You're more likely to walk on water than you are to skate on it.
Elena Passarello: With music from No-No Boy and our fabulous house band, I'm your announcer Elena Pasarello, and now the host of Live Wire Luke Burbank.
Luke Burbank: Hey, thank you so much, Elena Pasarello. Thanks to everyone tuning in from all over the country, including Corvallis, Oregon. We have a really great show this week. Two of the funniest people that I've been following for years are both on the same program, Aparna Nancherla and also Gary Gulman. It's going to be really great. Plus, we've got some amazing audience answers to our audience question this week, which was tell us about a time you felt like an imposter. Aparna's book is about imposter syndrome, among other things. So we're gonna get to those responses here just in a few minutes. First, though, of course, we got to kick things off with the best news we heard all week. This is our little reminder at the top of the show that there is some good news happening out there in the world. Elena, what is the best news that you heard all week?
Elena Passarello: Okay. This news starts out harrowing, but don't worry, it turns best. This took place a couple of weeks ago in one of my old stops, Austin, Texas, where Palash Pandey, a software engineer who's relatively new to town, lives with his cat, a really cute black and white cat, and her name is Tux. Tux and Palash have been together ever since he was in grad school in another town, and he found her at the college library. She was just like a kitten hanging out at the library and they're BFFs. And one day she wasn't feeling well, so he made an appointment at the vet and he doesn't use a car, so he called a Lyft. The Lyft took her to the vet and as he was getting out of the car, he reached in to get the cat carrier and the Lyft just took off. And so then Palash didn't know what to do. So he just started posting on social media. He's like, Hey, there's this car that drove away with my cat. I don't know where my cat is. The Lyft driver actually texted him at one point and was like, There's no cat in here. And he was like, What? And so then he kept on trying to call him, I think, and that's when he got kicked out. So people on social media, of course, immediately started reposting and responding to him, giving him ideas on how he could track down the vehicle. They encouraged him to call the authorities, which he did. They started a barrage of contacts to Lyft corporate. It ended up getting on KVUE. It started going global. There were people checking in from like London, like, I can't go to bed until I know what happened with the cat. Halfway through Lyft sent him a boilerplate message. Maybe you've gotten this Luke, that's like we're working hard to retrieve your lost item. If the driver has to return, you will be charged a fee.
Luke Burbank: Yeah, it's like 20 bucks.
Elena Passarello: Yeah. So he's like, What's going on? My cat is missing. This guy is not telling me where the cat is. We have no idea where the cat would go. But finally, Lyft corporate brought in an investigative team and the city was also looking for the cat. And like, the next day, they found the cat in the stairwell of a real estate building really, really close to the vet. But here's the best news Tux got back. Tux is fine, and Lyft covered all of the vet bills, so everything is cool. And now, just so you know, if you're ever going to hire a Lyft to take your pet somewhere before you get into the car, make sure that the driver knows what's going on, that you have a pet, and that you expect to still have the pet when the Lyft ride is over.
Luke Burbank: There is an oil related situation in Venezuela right now in a lake there, Lake Maracaibo, which for years and years was part of oil production in Venezuela, obviously a very oil rich country. But the problem is a lot of the pipes and other equipment that the oil was passing through have gotten rusty over time, and so you've had this oil seeping into this lake, which is one of the largest lakes in Venezuela. And it's really ruinous for the fishermen and for the people that want to use the lake and for the animals that live in it. And the Venezuelan government, at least some part of it, has been trying to say this is really more sort of aesthetic than anything like it's this sheen of oil. But basically, don't worry about it. It's not a big deal. Well Selene Estrach thinks it's a big deal. She is studying environmental science at a university, the University of Zulia. And she was trying to figure out something to do about all this oil that's been leaked into this lake. And she was one night up late looking at the Internet, like we all do, and she saw there was a San Francisco based organization that had used human hair to help soak up oil spills, because it turns out that human hair is more absorbent than almost anything else for this kind of stuff. Human hair is made of keratin mostly, and the keratin has these little kind of spots, if you will, that just the oil sticks to them. So she decided to start seeing if she could get hair salons in Venezuela to start donating hair to her research project because she's studying this in school and she thought she might sign up like a handful of salons. She got like 600 to start sweeping up the hair on the floor and sending it to her. Now, by the way, she said her car is just full of bags of human and animal hair. But what's crazy is she's actually — the research is really promising on this. At her university, she is working with a team to put the hair into these kind of mesh bags and create these booms the way it's described in the article I saw, they're sort of like giant hair sausages that are just going to float in the lake. You were— you put the words giant hair sausage into an article, it's getting on Live Wire Elena. I think that's the takeaway. This whole system was invented by a hairstylist in Alabama in 1989 named Philip McCrary, who got this idea. And then it was tested by NASA and NASA was like, This actually works. This is actually a pretty good idea. What they think is that about 2 pounds of hair can soak up between 11 and 17 pounds of oil. And right now, with all of these folks that are donating hair to the project in Venezuela, she's collecting about seven tons of hair every three months. This has also been something that's been really encouraging for a lot of folks in Venezuela, where they've been through so much political turmoil and economic crisis and the feeling, I can imagine, of helplessness. And this is one, let's be honest, slightly weird, hairy thing that can kind of bring everyone together and make them feel like, hey, there may be a way forward in some of these situations. So the fact that these folks in Venezuela have found some use for all that hair that's at the, you know, on the floor in the salon, that that is the best news that I heard this week. All right. Let's invite our first guest on over to the program this week. She is an accomplished comedian, actor and writer. She's got comedy specials on Netflix and Comedy Central. And yet, she might tell you, if she's having one of her darker moments, that her career is absolutely in the toilet. She covers all of that in her remarkable new book of essays, Unreliable Narrator: Me, Myself and Imposter Syndrome. This is our conversation with Aparna Nancherla, recorded live on stage at the Hult Center for the Performing Arts in Eugene, Oregon. Take a listen. Hello, Aparna. Welcome back to the show.
Aparna Nancherla: Thank you for having me back.
Luke Burbank: You write in this book about growing up, kind of a shy kid in it's Mclean?
Aparna Nancherla: McLean, Virginia. Everyone knows it.
Luke Burbank: Sure, of course. The gateway to Alexandria, I believe they call it. And that your mom, who was also someone who had started out, as a as you write, sort of anxious person, really wanted to have you push your—to kind of push your comfort zone as a kid so she would have you order the family pizza over the phone.
Aparna Nancherla: Yes. Yes.
Luke Burbank: Did that work?
Aparna Nancherla: I mean, it was it scared me. It helped build my anxiety. [Luke: Oh, okay. ] Yeah. So it was very formative for my anxiety, I would say. No. Yeah. She would have me practice ordering. We would have pizza, every— Pizza Hut, I think every Sunday night. That was like the big that was the big thing. And yeah, and I remember the order would always be like two mediums. It's like branded in my brain now. I've been trying to unlearn it in therapy, but it's not working. No, it was like veggie lovers. And then there's another one. But I just remember I would be like, rushing through it in my head, just rehearsing it. I don't know what was so terrifying about the idea of just talking to a stranger, but I think it was just because they were also probably underpaid and undervalued and they didn't want this nervous person ordering pizzas.
Luke Burbank: They were not trying to be part of your personal growth. They were trying to be part of your personal pan pizza.
Aparna Nancherla: Nobody wants to be your therapy homework, you know?
Luke Burbank: Yeah.
Luke Burbank: You write about the various sort of lengths that your mom, it sounds like in particular went to, including enrolling you in a public speaking class where you were one of the only non adults?
Aparna Nancherla: Yes. So this was one of her other ideas. She was full of ideas. Yeah. She signed us up for these public speaking classes and she was like, This is a lifelong soft skill. Like that was one of the exercises. It was like, pick a slip of paper out of a hat and just talk about that topic for 3 minutes. And, yeah, I don't know, like, I think it was sort of my gateway into comedy because it was something about speaking in front of a group, but then being told like, Oh, like move your arm like this occasionally, or like scan the room. Like it kind of felt like a cheat code to how to interact with a bunch of strangers. Yeah, I don't know, maybe you guys would want – could do it.
Luke Burbank: Yeah. I've been looking for that cheat code for, like, ten years on this show. [Aparna: Yeah. Yeah.Yeah.] We're talking to Aparna Nancherla here on Live Wire, the book is Unreliable Narrator: Me, Myself and Imposter Syndrome. I want to, after this break, ask you, Aparna, about how going on antidepressants was really your gateway to standup comedy. So that's coming up in a minute here on Live Wire from the Hult Center in Eugene, Oregon. Stay with us. Welcome back to Live Wire from PRX. I'm Luke Burbank here with Elena Passarello, we are at the Hult Center in Eugene, Oregon. We're talking to a Aparna Nancherla, a performer, writer, comedian. Her latest book is Unreliable Narrator: Me, Myself and Imposter Syndrome. I feel like at this point, a lot of people have a sense of what imposter syndrome refers to. But I'm just curious for you what does it feel like? How do you describe it?
Aparna Nancherla: Yeah, I mean, for me, it's just this persistent feeling that I don't know what is going on. Like, it sort of feels like everyone else is operating from some sort of playbook or manual in any given area of my life, whether that's relationships or career or, you know, just how to take care of my body. And just everyone's doing it better than me. And like any any like strides I've made myself are just like, full on flukes. Like they're just like happy accidents that I'm here right now.
Luke Burbank: Do you think, I was thinking about this reading your book, it feels to me like there's some sort of hyper vigilance going on, too. Like the idea being if I can figure out that I am a phony before everyone else, then nobody can, like, present that information to me out of the blue.
Aparna Nancherla: Yeah. I mean, one thing I learned when I was writing the book was that real imposters never feel like imposters. So the fact that you feel like one means you aren't one. Sorry. But, yeah, but I would challenge that and say that one facet of imposter syndrome is being like, Yeah, everyone else feels like they are, but I actually am because. And that's because I just know myself really well.
Luke Burbank: You write in the book about how you went on depression medication and you were in like a honeymoon phase with it, like you were feeling so much better than you had that it kind of emboldened you to go do standup comedy.
Aparna Nancherla: Yeah, I mean, I don't know. I think a lot of people have this experience with the antidepressants, but it's like the first time you ever go on them. Like it is sort of like putting on glasses for the first time if you're near-sighted or something where life is just suddenly like experiencing a different frequency where it's like music is sweeter, food tastes better, and you're like, Wait a second, everyone else has been doing it like this? Like, that's not fair. But I think it also, you know, along with that rage which you channel into joy, I, I was like, oh, life is actually a lot better than I thought it was. And so I think it yeah, emboldened me to try things I never would have otherwise. And I think, yeah, standup comedy was ended up being one of those things.
Luke Burbank: You know, I read a New York Times profile of you and the way that the writer described how you get ready to do a show was fascinating to me. And I have this week been applying it to my getting ready for this show, which is telling yourself it's okay if you mess up and that you have historically been good at this. And then something where you pressed your fingers together, I was kind of trying to guess at what they were referencing. Acupressure. [Aparna: You can guess?] I was driving around, I was driving around doing this and telling myself, it's okay if I mess up.
Elena Passarello: You were driving while you were doing that?
Luke Burbank: Well, with one hand. I was doing one hand of acupressure, mostly, though, telling myself it's okay if I make a mistake. I don't know why that was so freeing. That was a revelation for me. So thank you for like, accidentally casting that life skill off on me by way of just existing.
Aparna Nancherla: You're welcome. And I love that you just sort of took what you wanted and made it your own and did it while driving.
Unidentified: The that is like
Aparna Nancherla: the straight male confidence I need.
Luke Burbank: That would be the first time in history a straight white male has just swooped right in and just harvested whatever was of use to him and just left everything else behind. Why do you think why do you think so many people who are performers — I mean, there's a quote like right at the beginning of the book that I hadn't seen before, but it's from a British like patrician and I think psychoanalysts named D.W. Winnicott. And it talks about the conflict that a lot of artists feel. And it says basically it's the urgent need to communicate and the still more urgent need to not be found. Why do you think it is that so many people that end up on stage like this talking to microphones, both feel that need for people to pay attention to them and the need to not be found?
Aparna Nancherla: Yeah, I don't — for me, performing feels like a pressure valve being released. Like it feels like it gives me some degree of connecting with the world because I so often feel disconnected from it or like not knowing where I fit in to it. So I think performance gives me a sense of like going up to that wall and being able to maybe see through it a little bit. But then as soon as I get like maybe too much feedback or like too much acknowledgment that I'm being seen, I'm just like, No, no, no, no. You were— I wasn't ready. You know, I got go— I go. Wait, wait, wait, wait. I got to go away. Like, I don't know, There's like, it's a weird paradox I get because I do get asked that question a lot as, like, a shy introvert. It's like, how do you do stand up? And sometimes I'm like, I don't know. I think I think just God wants me to. [Luke:Yes.]
Elena Passarello: It's the perfect answer.
Luke Burbank: It sounds like this book, though, was actually kind of the outgrowth of that struggle that you have because you had a national tour scheduled and right before just realized you were not going to be able to do that. And so having canceled that, you then turned your attention to trying to write about it?
Aparna Nancherla: Yeah, Yeah. Because, yeah, it was like a point at my career where I had accomplished some things, like checked off some milestones, and I sort of thought I would work through, like, as I would climb the ladder, I would get, you know, less anxious and more confident and more sure of my place in maybe the industry. And I just felt like it was opposite. Like I got more unsure of myself. I felt more worried about the opportunities I was getting and whether I was qualified to achieve them. And so, yeah, I really had to take a break and step away from all of it. And yeah, I was kind of like, okay, if my self doubt has so much to say, why doesn't it do some work for once? You know, write — you write something.
Elena Passarello: You know, one thing that makes this book so unique that I don't think you necessarily had to do because you're a comedian, you're a storyteller, you have these great experiences, a sense of rhythm and timing. There's a ton of research in this book.
Aparna Nancherla: I know. It's a — to me it's a little embarrassing because it's like, I know what people— the type of book people expect from comedians. And I feel like I did not write that. And it's like, you know, serious and some funny parts. But then there's also a lot of, yeah, sources cited and I think it's because those are the kind of books I like to read, Like I love reading, you know, journalists books of essays like Gia Tolentino or like people of that ilk. And so I think this was sort of like my fan fiction version of that. [Elena: Yeah!] Yeah, it's really it's a little embarrassing.
Luke Burbank: You are listening to Live wire from PRX. We're chatting with comedian Aparna Nancherla about her new book, Unreliable Narrator. Something else I, I read Aparna, you talking about your process of like writing jokes and writing that you are capable of, of starting jokes while you're in the midst of a depressive episode.
Aparna Nancherla: Yeah. I mean, even writing about my mental health sort of came out, came out of the same thing as the way this book originated, which is that it was something I was struggling with acutely in my actual life. And then it felt like writing jokes about it at least gave me a little bit of distance or like a little bit of a way to dissociate from it a little bit. So, you know, for people who struggle with depression, it really is like you're just in this waiting room where you're like, I don't know when I will be seen by happiness. So I — so you're just finding ways to pass the time, you know? So I was like, I guess I'll try to write about it.
Luke Burbank: But you'll be in the midst of, you know, really having a you're struggling and but you're also are you writing down like things that are striking you, that are funny, that are unrelated to the depression you're in? Or is it about how you're feeling in the moment? The idea of writing jokes for the beginning of jokes while also operating under that cloud just seems really counterintuitive.
Aparna Nancherla: Yeah, I mean, the thing with my depression, which I begrudgingly like about it, is that sometimes it will, you know, not like it will show up later in the day. So it'll be like, You can do a few things today and then later is Me time, you know, like? [Luke: Yeah, right.] Yeah. So it's, it's a little bit of a balancing act. But yeah, I mean I think also just having a comedian brain, you are just like prone to just writing down any little interesting thing or something that catches you off guard to be like, well, maybe it'll be something later. But there are things I write down during more, you know, lower mood days where I'll just be like, Oh, this is maybe a cool idea. And now look at the next day and I'll be like, You're very sad, girl. You were very sad yesterday.
Luke Burbank: You — I think you say somewhere in the book that you had this idea maybe at the beginning of if you wrote this all down, it would sort of fix you, which I think is pretty obviously like not how things tend to work out in life, but I'm curious what the impact has been like and also just how as we're sitting here on the stage talking and stuff like how are you feeling?
Aparna Nancherla: Yeah, I mean, I, I think there's first of all, writing a book about imposter syndrome is in itself like a very strange meta exercise because the whole time you're just like, Who am I to write a book about anything? But, but, but then, yeah, but now that it's out, it's like promoting it is even weirder. [Luke: Yeah.] Cause it's like going around and being like, I'm very insecure. Please buy my book. You know, like it's —
Luke Burbank: Yeah.
Aparna Nancherla: It's a little bit disorienting, you know.
Luke Burbank: You're posing for, like, I have to say, very cute photos in The New York Times.
Aparna Nancherla: I know.
Luke Burbank: Like, those are great pictures.
Aparna Nancherla: And it's like, this girl is unwell, you know, like, please help her. Buy her book. She needs it. Yeah. So it's a little bit strange in that sense of like, I think I mean, really for any creator, it's like once you put something out into the world, you kind of have to let go of it in a way. So I try. I've tried to, yeah, like consciously uncouple myself from it a bit. Yeah.
Luke Burbank: Thank you so much for coming on the show. The book is Unreliable Narrator by Aparna Nancherla right here on Live Wire. [Aparna: Thank you. Thank you.] That was Aparna Nancherla right here on Live Wire, recorded at the Hult Center for Performing Arts in Eugene, Oregon. Her book, Unreliable Narrator: Me, Myself and Imposter Syndrome is out now. This is Live Wire. Of course, each week we like to ask our listeners a question in relation to a Aparna's book about imposter syndrome. We asked, What is the time that you felt like an imposter? Elena has been collecting up those responses. What are you seeing?
Elena Passarello: Okay, here's a classic one from John. John feels like an imposter: Every time I sit at the grown-ups table at Thanksgiving. What I wouldn't give to be sipping Martinelli's apple juice and making fart jokes.
Luke Burbank: That is absolutely directly from my childhood, right down to the Martinelli's.
Elena Passarello: Did you have it in a wine glass? So you felt fancy?
Luke Burbank: A mug. So we would pretend we were drinking beer as we were drinking, the Martinelli's was kind of roughly the same color.
Elena Passarello: Gotcha. Yeah.
Luke Burbank: What's another moment of one of our listeners feeling like an imposter?
Elena Passarello: Lena feels like an imposter: Whenever I have to do any kind of car maintenance without my dad present. What do you mean I'm supposed to know the make and model of my car? And the last time I got my tires rotated? Is that part of being an adult? I feel you, Lena. I feel you. I couldn't figure out, we have a new car, which I've never had a new car before, but we have a new car now, and I couldn't figure out how to turn off the back windshield wipers. So I actually had to pull the manual out of the glove box and, like, read it in the Fred Meyer grocery store parking lot. I'm 45 years old and it's literally the first time I've opened a car manual before.
Luke Burbank: My dad is one of those dads that can fix everything. And as he would be working on something on one of our old beater cars, he would always say, You want to come change the oil, You want to come change the spark plugs? I was always really resistant to that idea, and I regret it greatly in my adult life. I don't know how to do anything on a car. All right. One more moment of imposter syndrome, or at least feeling like an imposter for one of our listeners.
Elena Passarello: This one is my absolute favorite. It's from Bert. And he says, This is embarrassing. But one time in middle school, I had the biggest crush on this girl who only liked, quote, Bad boys. So in an effort to get her attention, I told her I always had detention after school for talking back, while in reality I was helping the teachers clean up after class.
Luke Burbank: That is like the opposite of when you get a bad grade and then you try to change it. Like you try to change the D into a B to bring it home to your parents. This is the total opposite. This is a person who is actually being a very studious, helpful person pretend that they were a delinquent. Thanks to everyone who sent in a response to our listener question, we'll have another one for next week's show, which we will reveal in just a few minutes. In the meantime, let's welcome our next guest. He is a stand up legend, certainly in my mind. I have been a fan of this guy, for many, many years. Gary Gulman has appeared on all of the late night talk shows. He's got an amazing HBO special called The Great Depresh. And by the way, if you are a savvy Live Wire listener and you were thinking, hey, did I just hear Gary Gulman on Live Wire? You did. He was talking about his book Misfit: Growing Up Awkward in the Eighties. But that was him talking about his book. This is Gary Gulman doing some actual standup for our very thrilled audience at the Alberta Rose Theater in Portland, Oregon. Take a listen.
Gary Gulman performs stand-up
Gary Gulman: Thank you. Hello. I came to promote a book. But I also love to do stand up comedy and I love books. This was a great melding of my two passions. One of the great things about the century we live in is that you can get a book in as little as 3 seconds. Maybe a day would keep you from reading what you want to read. And I compare that to what I grew up with in the 1970s and 80s where I got my books through the Scholastic Book Club. Where it took me ten days to get my mom to write out a check. That was ten business days. That was her policy. And then you would you would bring in the check with the book choice. We were only able to afford one. I would get one book and no posters. Just a book. And you would bring that in in September and then the books or book would be delivered senior year of high school. So I got my diploma and Hop On Pop, the same afternoon and obviously my verbal suffered. I really I feel I would have I would have thrived in the millennial Gen Z generation because I was very sensitive and thirsty. I don't— the Gen Z kids the millenials — much nicer to each other than we were. And it's no coincidence that they are much better hydrated. Then water was just not a consideration when I was growing up. And and a lot of people from my generation will say, well, we didn't we didn't even need it – we needed it desperately. Desperately. We walked around dizzy and listless all day long. We were irritable, if you remember, and we would get maybe maybe we would get to go to the drinking fountain twice a week. And I remember the teacher would would would count how long we got to sip. This was our water supply for the through Wednesday. And and she would stand there and say, one Mississippi, two Mississippi, three Mississippi. And I was outraged. And I remember I would say, first of all, it's Mississippi. You're costing me an entire syllable of water. And I'm not surprised you're using Mississippi to deploy your horrific drinking fountain policy. How apt. My word. It was — it was a strange time when they weren't they weren't worried about the right things. Like they were very concerned about the scissors from art class being — I remember in kindergarten, the art teacher, every time we used scissors, there was like a ten minute dissertation on how to pass scissors. And I remember thinking at the time, Oh, this must be something that people do a lot. Pass scissors to each other and. I'm I'm not exaggerating. I have never passed anyone a pair of scissors in my life. And she would there was a whole etiquette to passing scissors. And and I could have I could have summed it up in one just kind of. All right, you'll never pass scissors. But for some reason, if you ever find yourself passing scissors, you're a you're a mayor. And. And. And there's a ribbon cutting at a at a bridge. Okay. When you're passing the scissors, don't make a frenzied stabbing motion. Don't go like this. Just. And and also, those scissors were not dangerous. They— you couldn't cut Jello with those scissors, and yet the teacher would hide them in her, the bottom drawer, bottom left drawer with the lock, the lockable drawer where there had to be a bottle of tequila in there. There had to be. But anyhow, she would. She would lock them in the drawer. Okay, fine. But she would leave that paper cutter. Like you could you could behead a rhinoceros with that thing. Oh, yeah, Teacher hide the safety scissors, of course. Leave that portable guillotine out for everyone to play with.
I grew up in a in a very unusual sect of Judaism called Poor. We were, which if you know any culture, there's a version of you in every culture, but there are poor Jews, there are rich Jews, there are burglar Jews and everything in between. So we run the gamut. But we were poor, but we never felt poor because my dad was a very kind, generous man. He had this policy. He would say, If there's something you really want, just ask me and I will try to find the money. And then frequently he would come through and then just as frequently he would he would explain to us why we didn't need what we wanted. And and but he was he was he was very he would reason it out. And I remember one year I wanted to play hockey in 1978. I wanted to keep playing hockey. I played one season. I enjoyed the skating and so I wanted to keep playing. But they had raised the price from $50 to $500. And no, I know it was it was outrageous. And and so I went to my father. I said I'd really like to keep playing hockey. He said, if you really want to keep playing hockey, we'll try to find the money for you to play this sport you've shown no potential in. Also Gar, Jews have acquitted themselves with very little distinction in hockey. He said, I can't name a Jewish hockey player in the Hall of Fame, but let's let's check out the The Sports Almanac and we'll count how many Jewish players there are in the Hockey Hall of Fame. So I grabbed the I grabbed the the the sports almanac that I, I'm not making this up, I got from the Scholastic Book Club. They had a book fair and you could pick one free book. And I got the Sports Almanac for it was from like 1975 or whatever. But I, I got the book and I brought it over to my dad. He said, All right, we're counting the Jewish players in the Hockey Hall of Fame. Ready? Done. There were there were This were. This was 1978. There were zero Jewish players in the Hockey Hall of Fame in 1978. Now, of course, there are zero Jewish players in the Hockey Hall of Fame. He said, Just for a point of comparison, son, more Jews have been the Messiah. You understand that? You are more likely to be Jesus Christ himself than you are to make the Hockey Hall of Fame. You are more likely to walk on water than you are to skate on it. But if you really want to play well, find the money. Yeah, well, we'll find the money. Jesus.
At this age, I'll take wisdom wherever I can get it. And I've always found do unto others as you would have them do unto you to be very valuable. It's basically a sentence, but a blueprint for living, an ethical, compassionate, empathetic life. And it's it's perfectly worded and it's incredibly memorable, which makes me think that there is no way that Jesus improvised that on the Mount. He he definitely workshopped it at the at the different Psalm and Hymn clubs throughout Galilee and Bethlehem. And he would sit around with its disciples late at night and they would give feedback. And John, who was they were very close friend. John would say all that, do unto others. That is really it's come a long way. And and and he said, I remember the first night you did it at the at the Proverbs factory on on sunset. It was just a throwaway. You said, Treat everybody good. Goodnight. And. And do remember what I said. I said, There's something there. There's something there. I had such a wonderful time tonight, everybody. Good night. Thank you so much.
Luke Burbank: Gary Gulman, right here on Live Wire. That was Gary Gulman right here on Live Wire. His memoir, Misfit" Growing Up Awkward in the 80s is available now. I'm Luke Burbank here with Elena Passarello. We have to take a very quick break, but don't go anywhere. When we return, we'll hear some music from No-No Boy, a.k.a. Julian Saporiti. Julian is a historian as well as a musician. And you're going to get a little dose of both. Coming up, a little history and some music. So stay with us here on Live Wire. Welcome back to Live Wire from PRX. I'm Luke Burbank here with Elena Passarello. Okay, before we get to our musical guest, a little preview of next week's show, we are going to be talking to one of the most decorated runners of all time, Lauren Fleshman, as she talks about her New York Times bestseller, Good for a Girl: My Life Running. It's kind of part memoir, part manifesto about challenging kind of the male built sports system. We talked to Lauren in Track Town, USA, Eugene, Oregon, So people were pretty excited to have her out there. We're also going to hear from comedian and writer Joey Clift as he talks about his Comedy Central digital series Gone Native, which delves into the weird microaggressions that a lot of Native people in this country find themselves subject to. Then we are going to hear some music from the very fun Seattle based indie supergroup, Who is she? They are going to perform a cover of a song that actually got them fired from a professional hockey arena where they were supposed to play multiple days. So you're going to hear all about that coming up on next week's Live Wire. Here on this week's Live Wire, our musical guest is someone who tells stories rooted in years of research and relationship building that he started developing as the central component when he was working on his Ph.D. at Brown University. His latest album, Empire Electric, further examines narratives of imperialism, identity and spirituality and is available now from Smithsonian Folkways. This is Julian Saporiti, also known as No-No Boy, who joined us recently at the Alberta Rose Theater in Portland, Oregon. Welcome back to the show, Julian and Amelia and also Jacob Miller, who's going to be playing with you. Thanks for coming out.
No-No Boy: Thanks for having us.
Luke Burbank: Your last album that you were on the show playing a while ago was just so incredible from a musical standpoint and from the perspective of the history that it really unearthed and the way that you even gathered the audio for it. And so I've been really curious to hear about this latest project for you, like the particularly the song you're going to play for us now. What's the story behind it?
No-No Boy: So we're going to do a song tonight called 1603 and 1603 is an incredibly important day because this is the first confirmed non-native sighting of Oregon by the Spanish galleon ship that left Acapulco this incredibly arduous journey. This is known. But what wasn't known was a colleague of mine from one from my Ph.D. days. He texted me one day and he's like, You know, there was seven Asian sailors on this ship. So, like the first time, Oregon, the confirmed sighting, it's this multicultural crew. [Luke: Wow. ] And for a state, you know, that was started with a literal white supremacist constitution. Whites only state. And it's sort of the icon of Manifest Destiny with Lewis and Clark in the Oregon Trail. We're talking 200 years before that, there's this multicultural Spanish galleon kind of lost in southern Oregon, looking at the snow covered peaks. And it alludes to this larger history of Asians coming over in this deeply globalized world of the 16th and 17th centuries on the Spanish galleon ships in the thousands. And so we think often of Asian-American history, starting in the mid 19th century. Right, with the Chinese miners and railroad workers. But this makes us push our reckoning with people coming not just in that Manifest Destiny East to West mode in settling America, but coming across Pacific centuries earlier. This first song that we're going to do is sort of detailing that that incredible voyage and thinking about the perspective of this one guy in particular, this diver on the ship named Anton Tomas, who was from Malabar, a place in India right. So in 1603, how do you get to southern Oregon? And you're one of the first people to ever see our coasts, right. Our beautiful, jagged, rocky coast. Coming from India, taken probably as a slave by the Portuguese, maybe dropped off in Macao and then make it to Manila, where a Spanish galleon picks you up this five month journey, make it to Acapulco, and then an even longer journey up to be one of the first people to ever see Oregon. It's mind boggling. So again, as a history teacher, as a scholar, but as a musician as well, learning this story and then going to the actual beach that they that they saw right there, they never set foot on land because as a song will say, at the point where they saw Oregon, only six people were even able to stand just because of malnutrition and dying and stuff like that. So it's this floating ghost ship. And I love the idea of this complicated notion of discovery. Right. Because we don't — this is the first confirmed sighting. There might have been ships, Spanish Galleon ships that sailed past Oregon and didn't know it before that. But much like, you know, Columbus, like unheraldeding these discoveries and showing them is just like accidents of history and just people being washed up in this like very complicated, globalized mess of empires is fascinating. And, you know, hopefully some social studies teacher in Oregon hears this and they play this song for their kids.
Luke Burbank: Yeah. Well, let's hear it. All right. This is No-No Boy here on Live Wire.
No-No Boy performs song 1603
Luke Burbank: That was No-No Boy. You can listen to Julian's entire new album, Empire Electric, which is out now. That's going to do it for this week's episode of the show. A huge thanks to our guests, Aparna Nancherla, Gary Gulman and No-No Boy.
Elena: Laura Hadden is our executive producer. Heather de Michele is our executive director and our producer and editor is Melanie Sevcenko. Molly Pettit is our technical director. And our House Sound is by D. Neil Blake. Tre Hester is our assistant editor, our marketing and production manager is Karen Pan. Rosa Garcia is our operations associate. Jackie Ibarra is our production fellow and Ant Diaz is our intern. Our house band is Ethan Fox Tucker, Sam Tucker, Ayal Alves and A. Walker Spring, who also composes our music. This episode was mixed by Molly Pettit and Tre Hester.
Luke Burbank: Additional funding provided by the Regional Arts and Culture Council and the James F and Marion L Miller Foundation. Live Wire was created by Robin Tenenbaum and Kate Sokoloff. This week. We'd like to thank members Karen Anderson of Portland, Oregon and Walter Sharda of Munster, Indiana. Shout out to Munster. For more information about our show or how you can listen to our podcast, head on over to Live Wire Radio dot com. I'm Luke Burbank for Elena Passarello and the whole Live Wire team, thank you for listening and we will see you next week.
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