Episode 553

with Cheryl Strayed, Joseph Earl Thomas, and Stephanie Anne Johnson

Celebrated author Cheryl Strayed (Wild, Dear Sugar) revisits her collection of advice columns, Tiny Beautiful Things, which drops next month as a Hulu series starring Kathryn Hahn; writer Joseph Earl Thomas unpacks his memoir Sink, in which he describes how geek culture saved him from his hazardous upbringing; and singer-songwriter Stephanie Anne Johnson performs their song "The Day That You Begin." Plus, host Luke Burbank and announcer Elena Passarello share some life advice from our listeners.

Cheryl Strayed

Writer

Alongside being a Portland gem, Cheryl Strayed is the author of the #1 New York Times bestseller Wild: From Lost to Found on the Pacific Crest Trail, which has sold more than 4 million copies worldwide and was made into an Oscar-nominated major motion picture. Her bestselling book Tiny Beautiful Things, a book of essays compiled from her anonymously written advice column "Dear Sugar" is being adapted for a Hulu television show, and was previously adapted into a play that has been staged in theaters around the world. Strayed is also the author of the critically acclaimed debut novel, Torch, and the bestselling collection Brave Enough, which brings together more than one hundred of her quotes. Her award-winning essays and short stories have been published in The Best American Essays, the New York Times, the Washington Post Magazine, Vogue, Salon, and elsewhere. She has hosted two hit podcasts, Sugar Calling and Dear Sugars. Website • Instagram • Twitter

Joseph Earl Thomas

Writer

Described as "brilliant and brilliantly different" (Kiese Laymon), Joseph Earl Thomas is a multi-genre writer on a mission. His newest book, Sink, a coming-of-age memoir that investigates an unsteady childhood and the saving grace of geek culture, is yet another example of Joseph's writerly prowess. His other creative work has appeared in renowned literary journals such as VQR, N+1, Gulf Coast, The Offing, and The Kenyon Review, while an excerpt from Sink won the 2020 Chautauqua Janus Prize. Alongside his publications, Joseph has received fellowships from Fulbright, VONA, Tin House, Kimbilio, & Breadloaf, though he is now the Anisfield-Wolf Fellow at the CSU Poetry Center. An unstoppable literary force, he’s currently writing the novel God Bless You, Otis Spunkmeyer, and a collection of stories: Leviathan Beach, among other oddities. He is also an associate faculty member at The Brooklyn Institute for Social Research, as well as Director of Programs at Blue Stoop, a literary hub for Philly writers. Website • Instagram • Twitter

Stephanie Anne Johnson

Singer-Songwriter

Stephanie Anne Johnson is a special musical talent. They can bring a crowded dive bar to a collective hush. They can bring one of the biggest audiences on the planet to a standing ovation. They can even don a cowboy hat and sing over a slide as old timers weep. Stephanie's voice wowed judges on The Voice, and it’s no surprise that Johnson is so affecting with a mantra like, “find your joy and go there.” Their music, which is steeped in all that’s American, expresses the pain of the past, the roots of home, and the hope that hard work will lead to proper reward. Stephanie Anne Johnson has opened for acts that include political figure Bernie Sanders, and artists such as Mavis Staples, Chaka Khan, and Ani DiFranco. Website • Instagram • Twitter

• Full Transcript

  Luke Burbank: Hey, Elena.

  Elena Passarello: Hey, Luke. How's it going?

  Luke Burbank: Going great. Are you ready to play a little "Station Location Identification Examination"?

  Elena Passarello: Oh, yeah.

  Luke Burbank: "Station Location Identification Examination" is where I give Elena a little quiz about a place in the country where we are on the radio, and she's got to guess where I'm talking about. I feel like you're going to get this one. Trying to think of a hint that will extend it a little bit. How about this one? This is going back a ways. In 1926, Bertha Knight Landes became the mayor of this city. She was the first woman to be elected as mayor in a major American city. We're talking women's history this week. So that's an appropriate hint, but also a little bit of an obscure fact.

  Elena Passarello: Yeah, I don't know. I mean, it could be one of those ones where, like, the husband dies and then the wife becomes the mayor. Like, it happens with Texas governors all the time.

  Luke Burbank: I think I think this was a little bit a little less nepotistic than that. Let me give you another hint. This city is home to American writer and author of "So You Want to Talk About Race." Friend of the program, Ijeoma Oluo.

  Elena Passarello: Seattle, Washington.

  Luke Burbank: Ding, ding, ding.

  Elena Passarello: Amazing.

  Luke Burbank: And KUOW, where we're on in Seattle, 94.9 FM, one of our very favorite stations. Some of the some of the best folks out there are tuning in from Seattle, including a large contingent of my actual family. So shout out to everyone tuning in from Seattle, Should we get to the show?

  Elena Passarello: Let's do it.

  Luke Burbank: All right. Take it away.

  Elena Passarello: From PRX...it's....LIVE WIRE!

  Elena Passarello: This week, comedian and writer Jamie Loftus.

  Jamie Loftus: I just remember that there is this one comic strip in the newspaper that my mom thought was funny. My dad thought was awful, and I didn't understand 1%.

  Elena Passarello: And writer and mountain climber Silvia Vasquez-Lavado.

  Silvia Vasquez-Lavado: I never saw climbing as a way of conquering. You know, the very first time I came across the Himalayas, I felt a safety. I felt a sense of belonging.

  Elena Passarello: With music from Ani DiFranco and our fabulous house band, I'm Your announcer Elena Passarello and now the host of Live Wire Luke Burbank.

  Luke Burbank: Hey, thank you so much, Elena Passarello. Thanks to everyone tuning in from all over the country, including KUOW in Seattle 94.9 FM. We have a great show in store for you this week. We are celebrating women's history in honor of Women's History Month, and we have a listener question that we asked about in honor of that as well, which is what unsung or undersung hero from women's history would you like to shout out? People have been sending in those responses. We're going to hear those coming up in just a minute on the show. First, though, let's jump right in with our first guest on this special edition of the show. She's an Emmy nominated writer who's also the host and creator of four critically acclaimed podcasts, which The New York Times described as unexpectedly gripping explorations of niche subjects. We talked to her about her podcast, Ack! Cast, which explores the unlikely feminist icon Cathy. That's right. From the comic strip Cathy. The show is named the number one podcast of the year by Vulture back in 2021. Take a listen to our conversation with Jamie Loftus, recorded live at the Alberta Rose Theater in Portland. Jamie, welcome to the show.

  Jamie Loftus: Thank you for having me. I'm so excited to be here.

  Luke Burbank: Well, we had you on the show a while ago talking about your really incredible podcast, Lolita Podcast. And now I want to talk a little about this Ack! Cast, which is about the the comic Cathy, which I'm a bit older than you, but I think like you describe your experience in the podcast, you grew up at a time where really the the idea of this Cathy comic was just something to sort of make fun of. Or as you say in the show, "dunk on," and I have to say, went into this listening experience feeling the same way, but I came out of it with a totally different sense of where Cathy fits into the culture. What got you interested in her?

  Jamie Loftus: I think that I reflect on things I glossed over as a kid quite a bit, and I grew up kind of whatever at the tail end of newspaper comics being kind of a daily or weekly ritual. And I just remember that there was this one comic strip in the newspaper that my mom thought was funny, my dad thought was awful, and I didn't understand 1% because it was a comic strip for adult women. And no, and there was no one else kind of making something like that. So me as a kid, I was like, I don't I don't understand why taxes are stressful and I don't understand the wage gap. But but there was a huge audience for it. And it's an audience that at that time was all all of these kind of legitimate concerns that were like put in this very comedic way were made to seem silly when reflecting on it now, the jokes are still funny and a lot of the jokes hold up, but the concerns are are ones that I now have as an adult, because it turns out taxes do suck and there is a wage gap.

  Luke Burbank: What do you think people don't understand about the complexity of the Cathy character when they think it's just someone who's a chocoholic and yells ACK! A lot?

  Jamie Loftus: Well, all of the things are true. I will say. She does say ACK! And she does love chocolate.

  Luke Burbank: She also has a lot of sex, as you mentioned, and use a different word for it on the show.

  Jamie Loftus: And I know that I'm not going to use it here, but, you know, the one I'm thinking of and she does it all the time. And you can't do that in the newspaper, but it's like heavily implied and like, oh, she's like dating and it's lasting for a while. Like, she's doing it, you know, and she's doing it well, yeah. I mean, she's like a very complex woman who was kind of coming into adulthood in the seventies and eighties. And so she is very much engaging with all of these second wave feminist ideas that I honestly didn't know very much about. And I think, you know, with every wave of social movements, feminism included, you know, there is a honest and I think, very legitimate impulse to kind of dunk on your predecessors in some ways because they were not as progressive as they should have been. And there are people who and many women who are erased from that movement that need that called out. And then also, if they hadn't done the work they had done, then we wouldn't be where we are now. And so the Cathy comic strips became this very bizarre, specific way to engage with that idea. And also, you know, just find a woman who was very privileged in some ways, but in other ways had to start a whisper network at her own job in the eighties in order to thrive in the newspaper column like it was, it was just kind of this very bizarre way to learn more about kind of what my own mom and aunts went through.

  Luke Burbank: And your mom is in the podcast.

  Jamie Loftus: My mom is in the podcast, and now she and the author of the Cathy Comics, Cathy Guisewite are, are friends. Cathy Guisewite is truly like, she feels like a second mom to me now. She's been so supportive and so kind throughout this whole process, which I don't know if I would be able to give, you know, someone the same amount of grace that she gave me in making that show. She was so awesome. And she, in a very Cathy way, recently sent my mom an edible arrangement and was like, "Hey, thank you for raising Jamie." And then my mom sent her an edible arrangement back and was like, "Thank you for being nice to Jamie." And then Cathy sent an edible arrangement back.

  Luke Burbank: Wait, so we're at three edible arrangements. That's what's keeping that business in business, because I have never been able to figure out who's sending those things. It's your mom and Cathy.

  Jamie Loftus: And the tennis game of them sending old pineapple back and forth to each other. And at this point, I'm just a third party. I'm the referee.

  Luke Burbank: Yeah, That's beautiful. Yeah. There's only really one character from the sort of Cathy universe that you have just, unalloyed distaste for. And it would be her on again, off again Boyfriend, Irving.

  Jamie Loftus: Garbage. Garbage. Yeah. Irving. Bad. No sympathy for Irving. No. No.

  Luke Burbank: What is it about Irving's character that you find so detestable?

  Jamie Loftus: Isn't it about Irving's character that I find disgusting? No, I. I mean, in some ways, I understand he's, he's got a lot of internalized self-hatred. He's got a lot of internalized misogyny, and he's very, like, upwardly mobile boomer guy in that he has no recognition of his own privilege. And he's constantly buying gadgets and won't shut up about it. He's just like, he's just like all of my worst uncles bundled into one cartoon character, and he has no recognition for Cathy, this amazing woman who loves him. And there's all of these moments, I mean, and the more that I read about Irving, the more that I disliked him in specific ways because, you know, Cathy would go to therapy and he'd be like, I can't believe you'd work on yourself, Cathy. And it's like, look in the mirror, sir. Like, he was just an infuriating character. Top to bottom.

  Luke Burbank: Well, you also mentioned in the podcast he was Ted Bundy's favorite comic character.

  Jamie Loftus: Yes, that that was mentioned in I believe, was Ted Bundy's prison correspondence that he mentioned being a big fan of Irving and rooting for him, which is all you need to know.

  Luke Burbank: I call that a red flag.

  Jamie Loftus: Yeah. Irving wasn't, isn't known for, like, his stans, but his main stan was of famous murderer.

  Luke Burbank: This is live wire from PRX. We're listening to a conversation we recorded with the comedian Jamie Loftus about her podcast Ack! Cast. Talking about the Cathy comic strip. Now, we've got to take a quick break, but don't go anywhere because when we get back, we're going to hear Jamie's take on why it is that Cathy will not give up in the face of career trouble and lame boyfriends and the like. Don't go anywhere. More live wire with Jamie Loftus in just a minute. Welcome back to Live Wire from PRX. I'm your host, Luke Burbank, here with Elena Passarello and we are listening to a conversation with comedian Jamie Loftus talking about her podcast Ack! Cast, about the Cathy cartoon character as we celebrate Women's History this week on the show. Take a listen. When you're sort of summing up what you've learned in your sort of time with this this whole idea of Cathy and talking to the creator, Cathy Guisewite, you said you really think that this is a sort of long term meditation on effort and failure. What do you mean by that?

  Jamie Loftus: Well, in in the case of the Cathy Comics, what you come up against time and time again with this character is she wants more for herself. She wants to, you know, be upwardly mobile in her career. She wants to be paid equally, she wants to, quote unquote, have it all in the way we see all of these characters who are women struggle with throughout, you know, multiple generations and repeatedly in the Cathy comics, she's told "No" and doors are slammed in her face. But she keeps trying. And I feel like that is very much in many ways the story of every generation of women. But to see it specifically put in my mom's generation was so enlightening where it was, you know, like my my mom and many women of that generation had the same issues of knowing their worth and learning their worth and doing the work on themselves and still having for all these various reasons societally, doors slammed in their face, whether it was in personal relationships with the Irving's of the world, who were not realizing their worth and refusing to work on themselves, or whether it was bosses who wouldn't pay them for what they were worth or whatever it was. It was this story of again and again realizing like, I am worth something. The world doesn't recognize that, but I have to do what I can to hold on to that. And now, you know, as I get older myself, it's it's a lesson that unfortunately is still very important to hold on to. And I didn't appreciate or understand it when I first encountered the Cathy Comics, and now I'm just like, wow, she was really on to something. I wish that the lessons weren't so applicable still, but it turns out that that is the history of women.

  Luke Burbank: Yeah, Jamie Loftis, everyone right here on Live Wire. That was Jamie Loftus right here on Live Wire. Now, Elena, since we recorded that conversation with Jamie, she has been very busy really raising the question, What am I doing with my life? Of course, you can get ACK! Cast, which you were just talking about. She also released a new limited series podcast. It's called Ghost Church, and it explores grief and the tradition of kind of communing with the dead. Also, mediums are mentioned on the show. So check that out. And then also I've got this book actually here at my house. Jamie has a book coming out in May called "Raw Dog The Naked Truth about Hot Dogs." And she's actually going to be on the show to tell us all about it. So make sure you check out what Jamie has been getting up to. Live Wire is brought to you in part by Alaska Airlines. Alaska Airlines offers the most nonstop from the West Coast, including destinations like Hawaii, Palm Springs and San Francisco. And as a member of the OneWorld alliance, Alaska Airlines can connect you to more than 1000 destinations worldwide with their global partners. Learn more at Alaska Air dot com. You're listening to Live Wire. Of course, each week we ask our listeners a question. Since we're celebrating women's history this week, we asked our listeners what unsung or undersung hero from women's history would you like to shout out? Elena has been collecting those up. What do you seen?

  Elena Passarello: I have had the best time learning from all these listener suggestions, all these unsung heroes. I literally didn't know any of the people that we're going to talk about today. Starting with Susan's suggestion of Bridget "Biddy" Mason. Bridget Mason was born into slavery in Georgia, and she went with the people that enslaved her to Utah for the Mormon migration and then to California. And when she got to California, she was already a mom. And in a landmark trial, she won her freedom and she won freedom for her family. It was a huge deal. This was in 1856. Then she went on to become one of the richest women in L.A..

  Luke Burbank: You go.

  Elena Passarello: I know! She was known as Grandma Mason. She started as a physician's assistant and a midwife. She bought a bunch of property and then used some of she had like the equivalent of like $7 million today. She used her wealth to establish a daycare center for working parents, like in the 19th century.

  Luke Burbank: That is so ahead of its time.

  Elena Passarello: I know she created an account at a store where families who were victims of a big flood could get supplies. She also co-founded and financed the First African Methodist Episcopal Church, which is still going strong in Los Angeles. (Wow.) An amazing person. And my life is so much richer now that I know about Grandma Biddy Mason.

  Luke Burbank: I lived in L.A. for a long time, and I had never heard that story of Biddy Mason, so shout out to her. That's pretty amazing. All right. What's another Undersung hero that we want to hear about on this week's show?

  Elena Passarello: Okay. We were talking a little bit about Lady Mayors in the beginning of the episode. Have you ever heard of Laura Starcher?

  Luke Burbank: I don't think I have.

  Elena Passarello: Kristen told me about Laura Starcher. In 1916, laura Starker and a bunch of other women in Umatilla, Oregon, ran a stealth write in campaign and overturned the male City Council and the mayor's office. But here's the trick. Laura Starcher started a writing campaign and was elected mayor and beat her own husband.

  Luke Burbank: Wow.

  Elena Passarello: Along with a bunch of other people on the council and the news stories sort of brought a lot of national news and kind of an amusement way like they thought it was this funny novelty they called it. This was in like 1916, the Petticoat Government. But they actually got some stuff done. They improved water and electrical services. They approved funds for streets and sidewalk projects. They made new railroad crossing signs. They founded a library. They replaced all the city's American flags. When the smallpox epidemic happened in 1918, they appointed a health official, and a lot of women stayed in those positions for years and years and years. And when Laura Starcher left, she was replaced by another woman as the mayor of Umatilla.

  Luke Burbank: Who'd have known?

  Elena Passarello: That's amazing.

  Luke Burbank: That's incredible. Okay. One last Undersung hero from women's history that we want to find out about this week.

  Elena Passarello: Oh, I have to tell you about Eva Jessye, who Karen brought to my attention. Eva Jessye was born at the turn of the century, and she was an American musical conductor, a choral conductor, the first black woman to receive any international distinction as a choral conductor. And she's known as one of the main choral conductors and choral group leaders of the Harlem Renaissance. She worked with Virgil Thompson and Gertrude Stein. She was the musical director for the first productions of Porgy and Bess in 1935. And her choral group was the official choir for the Freedom March in the 1960s. So she's a real icon of American musical history, vocal musical history, and just a real groundbreaking legend. And I'm so happy to learn about her as well.

  Luke Burbank: I think I said this on the show last week, but this is the second year that we've done this when we're talking about women's history and asked the listeners to tell us about some folks who might not have heard of and I feel like this is a almost inexhaustible resource. Yeah, because there are so many people, so many women who were not thought of during their time. And so we can probably do this for the next ten years of Live Wire and learn something each year. So, all right, this is Live Wire Radio. Our next guest is an explorer in more ways than one. She was raised in Peru. She then navigated her way to the highest echelons of Silicon Valley before realizing that she really couldn't outrun her own childhood trauma. So what did she do? Well, she started climbing specifically mountains. She climbed Everest, Kilimanjaro and a bunch of others becoming the first openly gay woman to climb what are known as the Seven Summits. That's like the tallest mountain on every continent. Her latest book is In the Shadow of the Mountain. And we talked to her in front of a live audience at the Alberta Rose Theater in Portland, Oregon. Take a listen to this. It's our conversation with Sylvia Vasquez-Lavado. Wow. Sylvia, welcome to the program.

  Silvia Vasquez-Lavado: Thank you so much. It is so exciting. Thank you very much, Portland. Thank you.

  Luke Burbank: This book covers really the span of your life up till now. But let's kind of start in San Francisco in the early 2000s because you're living there. And by a lot of outward indications, you're doing pretty well, doing great at work. You have a lot of relationships or let's be honest, a lot of hookups.

  Silvia Vasquez-Lavado: Yes, I did.

  Luke Burbank: You're very popular person. (Yes.) Your life seems to be going okay. But what was really going on in your life at that time?

  Silvia Vasquez-Lavado: Well, I was secretly dealing with addiction. I was a full rage alcoholic. And very I mean, very few people knew how many times I had been evicted and how many times I had ended up on the E.R. And my life was spiraling out of control, especially because I'm a survivor of child sexual abuse. And the emotion, the shame, the trauma had, you know, had to chase me in my twenties. And I literally was spiraling out. But on the you know, on the facade that I was I had a stable job that I seemed to, you know, to be able to go to fun places and hip places was a way of hiding just the amount of pain and the amount of self-destruction that I was causing myself. So...

  Luke Burbank: You grew up in a I guess you say, an upper middle class family in Peru. (Yes.) So you grew up with resources. But it was also a family that was full of secrets, including some some people that you thought were your cousins, that were actually your siblings, because your mother had given birth to them earlier, but then was sort of kept from seeing them. What was that story?

  Silvia Vasquez-Lavado: You know, it was very unfortunate. My father, you know, was a little older than my mom. And he was raised in a very conservative way, you know, very patriarchal way. And he was very possessive. And so when he got together with my mother, he gave her a choice. You know, you can get together with me, but you have to let go of your children yet. You know, my mother, as any woman, she found a way of trying to see her children and trying to be part of their lives. And unfortunately, she entrusted me at the house with a person that she thought that, you know, she can count on who ended up being my abuser. And so every time she would sneak off to be with my siblings, you know, I was experiencing the abuse. And what was really hard growing up is that we would only get together on Mother's Day or on Christmas. And, you know, my older siblings, they were known as my cousins, and they were so loving and so kind. And, you know, I remember just always like being, you know, close to them, but not knowing what the secret was until ultimately it unravel.

  Luke Burbank: What was that like for you when you actually found out that these were your actual brothers and sisters?

  Silvia Vasquez-Lavado: I think for me was confusion. And even by the time that I found out, you know, that they were my real siblings. I was already experiencing the abuse. My parents had a very violent relationship. And then on top of this, we were having the birth of a terrorist movement in Peru. So there was a lot of hyperinflation. There was a lot of chaos around my life. And so for me, I was trying to, you know, find answers. I was trying to get to the truth. And if anything, I kind of was surprised, almost like, wow, I have other siblings. And then understanding the complexities of, you know, the drama, that my father's way of being created was ultimately very hurtful.

  Luke Burbank: How old were you when you realized that what you were going through in adulthood was related to what had happened in your childhood?

  Silvia Vasquez-Lavado: Well, I came to this country trying to outrun my past. I actually if anything, I came to the states with a scholarship and it was almost like escape. You know, when I told my mother what had happened to me, and I unfortunately didn't tell her until I was 15. So I went from the ages of 10 to 15 on my own, pretty much blaming myself that, you know, she took me to a psychiatrist. They did a bunch of tests and they were like, I think she's better off leaving the country. And so for me was like, okay, coming to America, you know, a way to start anew. I remember, you know, seeing 90210, and feeling that, you know, life in the States is going to be perfect. And, you know, so I, you know, and I, I ended up going to the Amish country in Pennsylvania. Yes.

  Elena Passarello: It's so great in the book when you show up at the Philadelphia airport and you're like, hello, I am Sylvia and I'm from Peru and I'm going to college. You find your way to the Amish country.

  Silvia Vasquez-Lavado: One of my favorite lines is like, you know, I'm Sylvia from Peru, and I'm going to military University of Pennsylvania. And they're like, Wait, what? And nobody. I mean, and I figured, like University of Pennsylvania, you know, Millersville, University of Pennsylvania. It should be like an annex or something close. But but yeah, definitely was a very unique start in life in America.

  Luke Burbank: This is Live Wire Radio. We are talking to Sylvia Vasquez-Lavado about her book "In the Shadow of the Mountain." When did the idea first enter your head to try to climb Mount Everest?

  Silvia Vasquez-Lavado: Well, you know, I call myself an accidental mountaineer. I come from a country that is known by its gorgeous mountain ranges, but it never appealed to me. You know, we always saw it as only the toughest of the tough could do it. And I even remember, I think we one of the very few trips that we did with my family we went to a was Koran and we tried to take a family photo in a boulder and it was a five feet boulder. And I freaked out and I had a massive meltdown. And from then I was curious, like, I've never tried that. But it was interesting because I was my life was spiraling out of control. I already had gotten a DUI. I had been sent to jail, you know, and that hadn't stopped me. And I hit a point in which my baby brother found me, passed out at the entrance of my home. And it felt that I had been, you know, I couldn't hide anymore. So I asked for help and I told my mom, you know, I need help. She's like, Come down to Peru. You do. You're going to do something that your cousin is going to help you with is called ayahuasca. And and so my mother was a very conservative woman. I mean, you know, we'll go to church. And so I'm like, okay, we're going to do ayahuasca first.

  Luke Burbank: This was, by the way, the most wholesome ayahuasca, most family oriented ayahuasca trip of all time. They, like, pick you up. They took you out to the place. Everyone's like, we're really rooting for Silvia with this out-of-body experience.

  Silvia Vasquez-Lavado: I mean, well, who doesn't do ayahuasca with their parents? I mean, it it is very interesting, But but so that was quite unique. And and so, of course, I'm like, you know, feeling I mean, like many of us, I'm just like, okay, great. I'm going to have a vision of the people that are causing all this damage in my life because I wasn't ready to to really admit to myself. So I'm just like, okay, let me see, who am I going to see? Who are all those negative forces? And I'm doing the ayahuasca. And the very first person that appears is me as a little girl, the little girl that I had ignore through all my years that I had run away from Peru, the life that I had wanted to disappear. And so I see her. I see her fragility, and all she wanted was reconnection with my adult self. And so I remember, like embracing her and feeling that wholesomeness. And there was something powerful. And as we're doing this and I hear this rumbling around us and these mountains took shape and my little girl grabs my hand and starts taking me into mountains. And so that was a powerful vision that I had on on this episode with ayahuasca. And so I'm a Virgo. I can be very square. And I figured, you know what? Why don't I could have looked at it and being like the metaphor of life, walk the mountains, you know, of life with my little girl. But I'm like, No, no, no, no, no. Let's put this into action. And I'm like, If I need to bring this massive pain, why don't I bring it to the most massive mountain in the world? Why don't I walk to the base of Everest? And of course, I never had done anything like that. I had never, you know, hiked before. I didn't have any of the gear. But but there was something powerful about how that vision came from something so sacred and so innocent of me that I figure, like, I have nothing to lose. So, you know, I just did what any normal person would do. I you know, I decided to attempt to just walk to the base of Everest. Yeah.

  Luke Burbank: We're talking to Silvia Vasquez Lavado here on Live Wire. The book is "In The Shadow of the Mountain." So, I mean, then you've gone on to have this incredible kind of mountaineering career and established this record of being the first openly gay woman to climb the Seven Summits. What do you think has made you so good at mountaineering from such a inauspicious start of not wanting to get on that boulder?

  Silvia Vasquez-Lavado: Yeah, I think, you know, for there are a couple of things. I mean, first of all, I never saw climbing as a way of conquering. You know, the very first time I came across the Himalayas, I felt a safety I felt a sense of belonging that I had never experienced in my life. And something completely just broke, you know, any any darkness that I had kind of felt that I was being held. And that's what it is, almost like my shadow. All all those secrets, all that pain was nothing in comparison to the power of the mountain. And so the way that I've taken into climbing has always been as a way of reverence, of respect, of actually connection. And so that takes away from, I mean, for me, the pressure of ego. I always say I don't conquer anything because when you are in this massive mountains, we're so tiny. First of all, these things have been in formation for millions of year. We're just passing by. So like, we're going to conquer who? I mean, the mountain is looking at us going like, Oh, really? I'm going to put in a storm and you're going to be blowing over the mountain. So so there is a sense of me of humility that that I come through this. And I think that has allowed me to almost feel as if I'm going in a temple. And it makes experience very fulfilling. And what I've really enjoyed is opportunity of getting to know myself more. I mean, I was going through this and I learned from the very early start that you can't do this while drunk because, you know, it's a little bit like your vision is quite impaired.

  Luke Burbank: So you tried that?

  Silvia Vasquez-Lavado: Well, you know, one of those things is like you get a headache and you're like, Oh my God, what am I throwing up? But if anything, mountains kept me safe and mountains kind of saved my life.

  Luke Burbank: Do you think physically, though, you have some kind of gift, whether it's lung capacity or just tenacity? Because, I mean, a lot of people have tried these things that you have done and they have they've quit and you didn't. Is that just sheer willpower? What do you attribute that to?

  Silvia Vasquez-Lavado: I think stubbornness, I would call it.

  Elena Passarello: You are a Virgo as you revealed.

  Silvia Vasquez-Lavado: Yes, I think it's stubbornness. It's actually just perseverance is a curiosity. I mean, what I get in mountains in nature is all, you know, and it is proven that three days in nature starts rewiring of the brain. So most of these expeditions, you know, usually go over a week. And because I have found so much inspiration and safety that, you know, by the fourth day I'm kind of connected. And it's almost like, you know, the curiosity about, let's see how far we can go.

  Luke Burbank: Are you just unfazed now by pooping outside? It's in the book, by the way.

  Silvia Vasquez-Lavado: I call myself the woman who's sh** her pants. So, you know, and I'm proud of saying that, but but yeah, you know, I look at it as as a a you kind of comfort.

  Luke Burbank: So now, even after you climbed Everest, you were still actively drinking?

  Silvia Vasquez-Lavado: Yes, I was.

  Luke Burbank: So how was it that you came back from that intense experience and were like, But I am still going to rely on this on this drug to try to alter my kind of feelings?

  Silvia Vasquez-Lavado: Well, you know, the amount of euphoria, especially after a lot of the summits, there was a sense of celebration. And of course, there was a way of like I mean, you just have all this adrenaline and it'll be like, oh, you know how to do it. And I mean, it is great that we finished the book at the top of Everest, because if people would know coming down, you know, I still had like a party for like three days. And that set me. But the beauty I mean, now I've been four years sober.

  Luke Burbank: Congratulations.

  Silvia Vasquez-Lavado: Well, thank you. Thank you. Thank you. You know, I think at the time, for me, you know, I felt that I still had control over my drinking. So even after coming back and partying, I felt like, well, I've done this amazing thing and, you know, maybe, maybe a little celebration. Let me give myself a little time to, you know, good job for doing this, for exposing my life, you know? My year after climbing Everest, my anniversary, I ended up having a bike accident. I ended up in the ICU and the doctors found a brain tumor. They couldn't determine if it was cancers or benign for a couple of days. My mother had died of cancer, so I'm like, and we've had it in the family. So I told myself, well, you know, it could be my time to go. And the very first thing that came into my life was gratitude. I remember being like, God, you know, I've had such an amazing life with all the ups and downs. I've seen some of the most beautiful sunrises, sunsets, as I've seen this uninhibited dawn. And I figured like, well, if it's my time to go, you know, I'll quit my job tomorrow and I'll spend the rest of my time trying to work with young girls, trying to climb and trying to share my story. So I remember putting myself a little bit of purpose, yet I still had to finish that last mountain, which was Denali. And after I was done with it, I remember I came down and I had a bad episode of drinking, and I just told myself, okay, you just completed this thing. You know, it's either one more drink or your life. And so I decided to take, you know, a closer look to my addiction and to figure, okay, where is the pain? And a dear friend of mine recommended me to take this incredible class on compassion, like self-compassion, and that completely changed my life. And it actually allowed me to start walking my talk. And I felt, okay. Now if I can if I can actually if I want to be able to share my story and if I want to be able to do it in a vulnerable way, that I can even walk my talk. I need to like, face these demon, you know, for once and for all. And it's been one of the most beautiful gifts. And so of writing this book has truly saved my life in that way.

  Luke Burbank: Wow. A lot of this book, a lot of the parts about the trauma have to do with secrecy in your family and also you feeling this tremendous sense of shame and trying to keep secrets together, whether it was the trauma that you went through as a child or your drinking or what have you, I mean, was was climbing Mount Everest or was climbing the Seven Summits more difficult than putting all of that information into this book that now, you know, lots and lots of people are going to read and hear about?

  Silvia Vasquez-Lavado: I, you know, kind of reliving pretty much the book was the hardest thing, you know. First of all, I hadn't opened, I hadn't opened a lot of those experiences, and I was doing it while sober. And so there was nowhere for me to hide. And that's the one thing I'm so proud about the book. It's almost like I think I overshare too much. I mean, my family's not too happy, but. But, you know, I mean, for me, it was somebody needed to say things that sometimes we don't want to say. And being able to bring out shame and secrecy out of the shadows and put it out there. So it was really tough. But, you know, I knew I mean, this is a this is a book that I wish I would have read after getting out, getting out of one of the ER sessions. I mean, I wish I would have been able to find a story of somebody who was that vulnerable and that open. And so that's something that has filled me with pride. It was hard, but I had a lot of help. I mean, I had my therapy and I love that. And one of my biggest realizations is how much information we stored in our bodies. Sure. It is amazing when when if we're really committed to trying to find out, you know, things that maybe have caused a lot of pain in us, the information is in us. And actually, it made me really sad to see, you know, how much self-destruction I was I was doing to myself.

  Luke Burbank: Well, it's amazing to hear what you've come through. And I think it's really kind of inspirational to other people who have experienced trauma in their life. I'm wondering, would you say the takeaway from this book is that everyone should do ayahuasca?

  Silvia Vasquez-Lavado: Yes, everybody should do ayahuasca. No. But no. The reality, I think, is, you know, this is a story, even though it comes across as a mountaineering story, it is a story of all of us. You know, we all have experienced shame, you know, a little bit of I mean, loss, grief, addiction. I mean, there's a lot of aspects. I mean, this is this is a book that reflects a lot of our different stages. And the biggest invitation is, you know, I know by the time you finish this book, you're going to be inspire to kind of ask yourself, okay, so what's what's my next like, what's my inner mountain? Was my outer mountain. I mean, what it is beautiful about the whole story within the book. It's almost like this beautiful healing circle. You know, it's a combination of common humanity, how the power of all of us being able to heal in community, how when we're willing to hear our stories, and especially just even being willing to take a walk in nature, the power and the transformative experience of we can all do it. I mean, it's a roller coaster ride that people are really going to enjoy.

  Luke Burbank: The book is "In The Shadow of the Mountain." Silvia Vasquez-Lavado. Thanks for coming on, Live Wire. That was Silvia Vasquez-Lavado right here on Live Wire. Her incredible book, "In The Shadow of the Mountain" is available now. I'm Luke Burbank here with Elena Passarello. We've got to take a quick break, but don't go anywhere because we will be right back with. I can't believe I'm getting to say this. Ani DiFranco. Ani is going to be talking about making music, also releasing 22 albums on her own label, which she started when she was 19 years old. And we're going to hear a song as well. So stick around. Lots of Live Wire still to come. Welcome back to Live Wire from PRX. I'm Luke Burbank, here with Elena Passarello. All right. Our musical guest this hour is nothing short of a legend. She's Grammy winner, feminist icon. Her latest album, Revolutionary Love, is her 22nd album that she released on her record label, Righteous Babe Records. We talked to Ani DiFranco from her home studio in New Orleans during the pandemic. Take a listen to this. Ani DiFranco. Welcome to the Live Wire House Party.

  Ani DiFranco: Thanks for having me.

  Luke Burbank: I was surprised when I was doing a little research on you that you founded Righteous Babe Records when you were like 20. I mean, that's incredible to me. And how do you think that shaped the arc of your career, that you've been basically in charge of your own albums for all these years and not, you know, at the behest of some label? And you must have turned down what was felt like a ton of money in your early life to go this on your own.

  Ani DiFranco: Yeah, well, one will never know the extent of the money or exposure or this or that that I turned down because such are the choices, you know, the path not taken. So I have only myself to blame, you know, for all the mistakes I've made. And I prefer it that way. You know, I mean, I think in a lot of ways it would have been awesome to have the team of professionals helping me translate what I do. Helping me reach people with what I do. All of that. But in another way, I was freer and my records, though they might not be as polished or constructed, you know, for radio or whatever, or maximum sort of reaching the biggest audience. They are very real. Yeah. You know, they're very much like whatever trip I was on at the time, you know? So there's a there's a deep honesty going on, if nothing else.

  Luke Burbank: I think also that very real and and an honest nature of your songwriting is why your fans really connect with you. Like really. And I can only imagine that that feels great. But it's also sometimes a lot of, as we now say, emotional labor for you to have a whole bunch of people who feel really strongly about this stuff that you've created. What is it like to have that kind of connection with a bunch of people, many of whom you haven't even met?

  Ani DiFranco: Well, it's intense. You know, it is intense. And sometimes it can be overwhelming. It can be too much. But I wouldn't trade it. It's you know, it's a wonderful problem to have really having people that I've never met feel they know me, feel they love me, even though, you know, it really is a beautiful thing. And I and it makes sense to me because yeah, like we've been talking about, I've been so naked in my songs and in my shows and in my records that I'm not hiding anything, really. So yes, you do know me. I don't know you back necessarily oh person that's, you know, in my face now hugging and and hyperventilating and but it is still just even when it's overwhelming, like I said, I wouldn't trade it. It's so important just to feel I've connected with people. I've you know, I've just I've bared myself and I've put so much out there. And to feel that it's connected and maybe even helped me be uplifted, maybe affirmed somebody else's existence. That's my that's my reward right there.

  Luke Burbank: You're someone who was known for being very progressive and really bringing up a lot of conversations in your music that other people weren't at the time. I'm curious what it's like for you, though, to still be learning at this point in your career. You know, because I can see and I'm guilty of this myself, if if one intends to be someone who really is inclusive and thinks about other people's experiences, it's also kind of mind blowing to realize you weren't doing it right. I don't mean you specifically, but we people weren't doing it right for all these years that we thought we were doing our best.

  Ani DiFranco: Yeah, I mean, that's what it's all about, right? Growing, listening, staying engaged with people, continuing to learn more about what you don't know. Because how could you, you know your experience. I know mine, you know yours. So, I mean, the only thing that scares me these days is that we sometimes don't give each other license to not know everything, to not be born into ultimate consciousness, to be on a learning journey. You know, I certainly, like you said, I've been on one my whole life, and I honestly don't know how I would have fared this journey if I had been born into the age of social media of, you know, like I don't know how a young person who wants to do as I've done, sort of push the envelope, step out, try like you said, you know, try to challenge society, try to speak to their own truth, to to to what they see. And and that involves making mistakes. And so I'm I feel terrified for young people who want to be that agent of, you know, of change and challenging and stepping out and taking risks. Now, oof, I feel very much for the young and intrepid, I wish them well. I hope that we, you know, can come back around to this idea that it's not about being right. It's about being in it and continuing to learn and say, oh, I know more than I did yesterday, and maybe even to say sorry for what I did or said yesterday.

  Luke Burbank: What song are we going to hear?

  Ani DiFranco: Oh, gee whiz, I thought I'd play you "Simultaneously."

  Luke Burbank: This is the latest single off of your your album Revolutionary Love.

  Ani DiFranco: That is correct.

  Luke Burbank: This is Ani DiFranco here on the Live Wire House Party.

  Ani DiFranco: I live in two different worlds, Simultaneously, The one I seem to live in, And the one that lives in me, And one is full of violence, Oppression and disrespect, And one is full of longing, To breathe and to connect, Yeah, my inner world is fragile, And the outer world is dumb, And this whole thing is such a hassel, Won't you wake me when it's done?, I live in two different worlds, Simultaneously, The one where we are fractures, And the one where we are free, Freedom requires trust, Freedom requires balance, In the equation of us, Yes, my inner world is fragile, And the outer world is dumb, And this whole thing is such a hassle, Won't you wake me when it's done? When it's done...., I live in two different world, Simultaneously, And between them is a chasm, Unfolding unfathomably, And in that chasm a shadow, And in that shadow I stand, Facing towards the light, Nothing in my hands, My inner world is fragile, And the other world is dumb, And this whole thing is such a hassle, Won't you wake me when it's done? When it's done....

  Luke Burbank: That was Ani DiFranco right here on Live Wire. Her album Revolutionary Love is out now, and she's got a new children's book coming out this month called The Knowing. So check that out as well. All right. That's going to do it for this special episode of Live Wire this week. A huge thanks to our guests, Jamie Loftus, Silvia Vasquez-Lavado and Ani DiFranco. Live Wire is brought to you in part by Alaska Airlines.

  Elena Passarello: Laura Hadden is our executive producer. Heather de Michele is our executive director. Our producer and editor is Melanie Sevcenko. Our assistant editor is Trey Hester. Our marketing manager is Paige Thomas. Our production fellow is Tanvi Kumar, and Yasamin Mahdian is our intern. Our house band is Ethan Fox Tucker, Sam Tucker, Ayal Alves and A. Walker Spring, who also composes our music. Molly Pettit is our technical director and mixer, and Our House Sound is by D. Neil Blake.

  Luke Burbank: Additional funding provided by the Oregon Arts Commission, a state agency funded by the State of Oregon and the National Endowment for the Arts. Live Wire was created by Robin Tenenbaum and Kate Sokoloff. This week we'd like to thank members Josh O'Rourke, Portland, Oregon, and Manuel Galavis of Vancouver, Washington. For more information about our show or how you can listen to our podcast, skedaddle on over to Live Wire Radio dot org. I'm Luke Burbank for Elena Passarello and the whole Live Wire crew. Thank you for listening and we will see you next week.

  PRX.