Episode 527
with Nikki Sixx, Todd Haynes, and Melanie Charles
Host Luke Burbank and announcer Elena Passarello share our listeners' go-to karaoke songs; Mötley Crüe co-founder and bassist Nikki Sixx describes how his love of storytelling propelled him from a small town kid to a heavy metal icon; Academy Award-nominated filmmaker Todd Haynes (Far from Heaven, Carol) unpacks his first documentary feature The Velvet Underground, which looks at the lasting legacy of the 1960s experimental rock group; and genre-bending powerhouse Melanie Charles performs a "reimagining" of Marlena Shaw's "Woman of the Ghetto" from her new album Y’all Don’t (Really) Care About Black Women.
Nikki Sixx
Mötley Crüe Co-founder and Bassist
Nikki Sixx is a musician, songwriter, radio personality, and producer best known for his role as lead bassist in the heavy metal band, Mötley Crüe. Born in San Jose, California, he grew up in Idaho and bounced around from school to school. At 17, he moved to Los Angeles to pursue music, performing as a bassist in various bands before forming Mötley Crüe with drummer Tommy Lee. The group’s most successful album, Dr. Feelgood, remained on the charts for 114 weeks, and the group's autobiography, The Dirt, became a New York Times best seller and later a movie. Sixx also hosted the radio show Sixx Sense from 2010-2017, a discussion of music, lifestyle topics, and the world and mind of a rock star. Never one to shy away from introspection, Sixx has released several tell-alls about his life and career, the most notable being The Heroin Diaries: A Year in the Life of a Shattered Rock Star. In October 2021, Sixx added The First 21 - How I Became Nikki Sixx to the list, a memoir exploring his evolution from farm boy to heavy metal icon. Website • Twitter
Todd Haynes
Filmmaker
Filmmaker Todd Haynes uses his cinematic expertise to explore the unusual, the provocative, and the controversial. His works center around the lives and personalities of well-known musicians, dysfunctional and dystopian societies, and blurred gender roles. Haynes first gained public attention with his short film Superstar: The Karen Carpenter Story (1987), a contentious look at singer Karen Carpenter's tragic life and death, using Barbie dolls as actors. Despite conflict, Haynes’ work has gained critical recognition. His directorial debut, Poison (1991), a three-part exploration of AIDS-era queer perceptions and subversions, won the Sundance Film Festival's Grand Jury Prize and is regarded as a seminal work of New Queer Cinema. Velvet Goldmine (1998), a tribute to the 1970s glam rock era, received the Special Jury Prize for Best Artistic Contribution at the 1998 Cannes Film Festival and an Academy Award nomination for Best Costume Design. Haynes revisits the glam rock era in his newest film, The Velvet Underground (2021), an exploration of the career and cultural influence of the rock band by the same name. Website
Melanie Charles
Musician
There are very few artists whose sound can capture the sentiments of a generation. The Brooklyn born and raised, Melanie Charles, is one of these artists. Over the past few decades, she has made a name for herself through dynamic engagements with jazz, soul, and R&B. Her bold genre-bending style has been embraced by a range of artists including Wynton Marsalis, SZA, Mach-Hommy, Gorillaz, and The Roots. In 2021, she appeared on NPR’s Tiny Desk and stunned with her eclectic style. Through it all, she has remained committed to making music that pushes listeners to consider new possibilities—both sonically and politically. Make Jazz Trill Again, a project that she launched in 2016, demonstrates her allegiance to everyday people, especially the youth and is focused on taking jazz from the museum to the streets. Charles’ newest album, Y’all Don’t (Really) Care About Black Women, is reflective of Charles’ tremendous versatility and imagination as an artist but of also her deep care for community. Website • Listen
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Luke Burbank: Hey Elena!
Elena Passarello: Hey, Luke. How's it going?
Luke Burbank: It's going great. Are you ready to play another round of station location identification examination?
Elena Passarello: I am super duper ready.
Luke Burbank: Okay. This is, of course, where I talk about a place in the country where Live Wire in on the radio you got to figure out where I'm talking about. Okay? I know one of these hints I think will be a dead giveaway for you being the writer that you are. But let's start with the fact that this city is home to the US's first chewing gum factory, which was opened in 1850.
Elena Passarello: Uh.
Luke Burbank: I assume they opened it right next to the school desk factory. So you could just take the gum, put it right under the desk.
Elena Passarello: Well, I mean, the only chewing gum town I know is Chicago, but I feel like it's not Chicago.
Luke Burbank: This is northeast of there. In 2009, residents of this place came together to make the world's biggest lobster roll. Although, I guess that record has since been broken by two Canadian groups.
Elena Passarello: Okay. So it's somewhere in Maine?
Luke Burbank: Yes. Okay. It is also the birthplace of Henry Wadsworth Longfellow and Stephen King.
Elena Passarello: Portland, Maine.
Luke Burbank: Portland, Maine, where we are on WMEA radio, part of the Maine Public Radio Network. I knew you'd get it.
Elena Passarello: I have a pal who listens in Portland. Shout out to her. Hey, Betsy.
Luke Burbank: Shout out to Betsy and everyone listening all over the country. All right. Should we get going with the show?
Elena Passarello: Let's do it.
Luke Burbank: All right, take it away.
Elena Passarello: From PRX....It's Live Wire. This week, Mötley Crüe rocker Nikki Sixx.
Nikki Sixx: I got guys breathing down my neck that want my gig. I'm not giving you my gig.
Elena Passarello: And filmmaker Todd Haynes.
Todd Haynes: We felt like we were so privileged to be making a film using other films.
Elena Passarello: With music from Melanie Charles.
Melanie Charles: But of course, me being the artsy person that I am, I wasn't doing regular remixes. I was really doing re-imaginings.
Elena Passarello: I am your announcer, Elena Passarello. And now the host of Live Wire Luke Burbank.
Luke Burbank: Thank you so much, Elena Passarello. And thanks to everyone tuning in from all over the country, including in Portland, Maine. Of course, we asked Live Wire listeners a question before this week's show. The question, because we're talking about music so much, this episode is "What is your go to karaoke song?" That says a lot about a person. First of all, the fact that they have a go to karaoke song and then what that song is. We're going to hear those responses coming up in a little bit. First, though, we got to kick things off with the best news we heard all week.
Luke Burbank: And this, of course, our little reminder that there is, in fact, some good news happening out there somewhere in the world. Elena, what is the best news you've heard all week?
Elena Passarello: Okay. Well, for the best news of the week, we've got to go to Long Island.
Luke Burbank: I was wondering what that accent was.
Elena Passarello: On Long Island, there's some new residents, Stefanie Whitley and her family, which includes an eight year old cat named Lily. They moved there and then a couple of weeks in, Lily, who was an outdoor cat, just didn't come home one night. And they were like, oh, no, is she lost? Like, this is a new place. Is this going to be okay?
Luke Burbank: As a recent cat owner and a person whose entire identity is now guy who brings cat around on a leash, lost cat posters have a whole new impact.
Elena Passarello: Oh, yeah. And if you have, like, an unleashed cat, like I do, he's always pretty good about coming back. But every once in a while, you know, it'd be 12, 13, 15, 20 hours. And it's just your world just sort of, like, grinds to a halt. And that's what happened with eight year old Lily, who is also a gray cat with gold eyes like my cat Spooner. The reason that I know that Lily is a gray cat with gold eyes is because Lily came back and Lily came back in a spectacular way that was documented on the Whitley family's Ring camera.
Luke Burbank: Okay, this is how we're finding out about almost everything that's happening anymore in the world is someone's doorbell, camera caught it happened.
Elena Passarello: It's the new must see TV. It's just, like, cool stuff that happens on Ring cams. Remember when that lady fought off a bald eagle that was trying to take away her pet goose?
Luke Burbank: Yes, I think 30% of that is accurate.
Elena Passarello: This only involves one animal. And it's Lily who showed up after four days in absentia. And the way that she alerted the family that she was home was that she rang the doorbell. So there's this great video of this beautiful gray cat stretching up past the ring cam. You see her belly and then you hear -- you don't hear the doorbell, but you hear the natural doorbell that all cats possess, which is just howling to be let in. And then you hear this just joyous, "Lily!" And then the door opens and she comes in and the cat's like, What? I was just on a walkabout, you know?
Luke Burbank: I feel like cats have some innate sense of when you may have given up that they're ever coming back, and that's when they come back. It's one of those, it's like you have to release desire on them. And then you manifest them somehow.
Elena Passarello: Yeah.
Luke Burbank: We're talking about cats being outside. And speaking of the outdoors, of course, you know about the clothing brand, Patagonia, which is, you know, often associated with climbing mountains and doing all kinds of rugged, outdoorsy stuff or jogging in Portland, which is how I tend to utilize the equipment. Well, the family that owns Patagonia, particularly the guy who started it, Yvon Chouinard, they've announced that they're giving the company away or more accurately, they have given the company away. And it's a fascinating story. This guy, Yvon Chouinard, has always been, based on what I've read, a kind of unlikely businessperson, like he was a self-proclaimed dirt bag back in the sixties and seventies. But that's not a pejorative. That's just like people who live for climbing and skiing and they just live out of the back of a car and they're not very hung up on material possessions. Somehow along the way, he ends up founding this tremendously successful company, Patagonia Clothing, but it never really sat right with him. He would get mad, according to this New York Times profile of him, when he would be listed as one of the billionaires in America. He said, I drive an old Subaru. He and his family, they have a home in in Wyoming and a home in California. But they're described as very modest homes. He wears old secondhand clothes. So he was just getting really fed up with being a successful business person and told the lawyers, you've got to do something about this. And so they hatched this pretty complicated plan where basically the family gives away all of their control of Patagonia. And so some of the money goes into a trust that's going to support organizations that are combating climate change. And then the rest of it is going to go into a certain kind of system whereby Patagonia continues to operate as a for profit company. But this family, it's irrevocable. They cannot get it back. They are no longer the owners of this thing. One of their attorneys said that the family's philosophy is that every billionaire is a policy failure. And that's a heck of a statement. I mean, they really are of the opinion that certainly they don't think they need billions of dollars to be happy in their own life and they've given the company away. And Yvon Chouinard, by all accounts, is extremely relieved because, you know, they've got a place to live and, you know, he's got enough money to be okay, but he doesn't have to keep being a billionaire anymore. And he just wants to basically hang out in his yard and grow his organic produce and not be rich anymore. So that that is the best news that I heard all week.
Luke Burbank: Alright. Let's welcome our first guest on over to Live Wire. He is a founding member of Mötley Crüe. He's a three time New York Times best selling author. And he is also a recovering addict who works to help other folks who are in recovery. He's got a new book out. It's called The First 21: How I Became Nikki Sixx, and it follows his transformation from Idaho farm boy to genuine rock icon. Nikki stopped by Live Wire last year to tell us about the book and his life. Take a listen to this.
Luke Burbank: Here's something I didn't know I'd be saying as the host of a public radio show, Nikki Sixx from Mötley Crüe. Welcome to Live Wire.
Nikki Sixx: Hey, what's happening?
Elena Passarello: Woo!
Luke Burbank: So this book starts out. You're sitting in Dodger Stadium watching a baseball game and you realize, wow, this is one of the few really iconic venues that we haven't played as Motley Crew. And wouldn't it have been nice if if we could. But but you all had agreed you weren't going to play anymore. And so that seemed like it was kind of unlikely to happen. But then you'd changed your mind?
Nikki Sixx: It was very unlikely to happen. And we signed that contract so there would never be any version of Mötley Crüe that wouldn't be the one that started together in 1981. I guess the only way out of it was if all four of us wanted to do that. But we didn't think we ever would. So that guarantee that we could kind of put an end to something in a positive way. When the Mötley Crüe movie The Dirt came out, then we had started working together, writing music and spending time on the set. And there's a really good feeling among us, but still no idea, like we were going to go tour again. That never came up until I got a phone call from our agent and said, Live Nation wants to know if you want to do some shows around the movie. And I was like, you know, we've played every arena on Earth 35 times, and I'm kind of digging where I'm at in my life. And it's a lot of work to get together for eight arena shows, even though it would be special for the fans. And he said, Excuse me. I said, stadiums. And I went oh....
Luke Burbank: Like Dodger Stadium, potentially?
Nikki Sixx: Yeah, like Dodger Stadium. So I got on the phone to the guys there, like, we have a contract. What are you thinking? And I go, I don't know, what are you thinking? And eventually we all talk. We agreed to do the eight shows. Def Leppard came on board, partnered up with us. So it's Mötley Crüe, Def Leppard, Poison, Joan Jett. What, like summer outside, great time. They put eight more shows on sale, sold out, eight more shows sold out. Rumor was they're going to come back and offers the world with this package. And then I'm literally driving down the freeway. And I hear about COVID-19. It was within only a week that I pulled all my kids out of college. Everybody like, you know, had to come to the house. We are in isolation and everything changed. But what didn't change is that we still want to go out and tour.
Luke Burbank: I was so fascinated just to read about what your preparation is for these big stadium tours. Just like the physical, the mental, the emotional. Like, what do you have to do to get ready to go do that?
Nikki Sixx: I mean, I told my wife, we get back up to Wyoming and December 1st I got to start training. I'm on stage June 19. You got to be stage ready at least a month before that. And we got band rehearsals and I said, I'm not looking forward to it because it's hard. I mean, I remember when I was in full training mode for the tour, we went to see a movie and my wife ordered some nachos and she got a glass of red wine and she goes, Do you want anything, baby? And I want those butterfingers. Oh, man, I love that popcorn. I go, No, I got my little my little bag with eight almonds in it. I'm like, Oh, man, she's like coke and water, you know? Ooh, heavy metal. But you know what? I got guys breathing down my neck that want my gig. I'm not giving you my gig. You can't have my crown. You can't stand on my stage. And if you want to, I'm going to fight you for it. So that's why, like for me, well, we're going to go on tour. I don't want to I don't want to half assed it out there. And especially if we're coming out of retirement. No way.
Elena Passarello: Yeah. And it's like 3 hours of cardio and weights, is that right, to get ready for a stadium show?
Nikki Sixx: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's it's a lot. And and then, you know, as as you do fun things like break guitars for a living for over 30 years, you have torn rotators. I had my hip replaced. I just recently had my back fuzed.
Elena Passarello: Whoa.
Nikki Sixx: You know, I thought when I was 25 or 35, diving off the stage in the audience, you land on the cement and you get up and it's like, come on, let's do it again, you know? But that stuff adds up. I equate it to being like an athlete, you know, after, after 50.
Luke Burbank: This is Live Wire. We've got to take a quick break. But when we come back, we will hear more from Nikki Sixx of Mötley Crüe. So stay with us.
Luke Burbank: Welcome back to Live Wire from PRX. I'm your host, Luke Burbank, here with Elena Passarello. We are listening back to a conversation we recorded with Nikki Sixx of Mötley Crüe back in 2021, talking about his book, The First 21: How I Became Nikki Sixx.
Luke Burbank: Really, this book is the first 21 years of your life and your childhood and your sort of early days in Los Angeles, a childhood that involved a lot of moving around and not a lot of stability. You have this part of the book which you say is the recipe for making a rock star. You say, take a child, the more impressionable and imaginative, the better, add a dash of neglect or abandonment. Shake vigorously and let sit. Does that basically describe your childhood?
Nikki Sixx: Yeah, in a lot of ways. But also the interesting thing about going back and taking a bird's eye view, a helicopter view of a time in your life, you get to see things a little bit different. And because we went all the way back, even to my birth, there's discrepancies. My mother, as you know, the book went on this isn't about being, you know, disrespectful to my mom and rest in peace. She did her best that she could do with the tools that she had. But, you know, telling me things when I was super young and impressionable about my father and about even like my birth, I guess I was never supposed to be named Frank. You know, he, the bad guy, named me Frank. She wanted me to be named something else. My mom was always...
Luke Burbank: She wanted you to be named Nikki Sixx.
Nikki Sixx: Yes, she did. It was it was Nikki Sixx or Axl Rose, you know. But, you know, I went back and I started talking to my family. I started talking to my aunt, my mom's sister. And they're like, that's not true. And you carry around this suitcase full of misinformation on your left side and on your right side, it's like resentment. And that's stuff gets heavy, you know? And when I got sober, I got to look at a lot of that stuff. I also think those first 21 years for for probably all of us right here, there was a moment where you're like, That's what I want to do. Like, that's what I want to do. I talk to authors. They're like, Yeah, I remember when I was ten and I read this and I was like, That's what I want to do for a living. Or, you know, a kid gets his first basketball and he sees his heroes on TV, and next thing you know, he's the next, you know, NBA champion. So I think those first 21 years are super important. And to instill that into the reader that not only can they reminisce, but if they pass it on to their own children or people read it that are young, that, you know, going for the dream is the right thing to do. You know, when you quit, you get what you get. You know, don't quit. Go for it. And that's what I did.
Luke Burbank: What was that moment for you in your first 21 years where you started to really see like music and rock music as kind of your way to a different life?
Nikki Sixx: I talked to a comedian recently and he told me that when he discovered comedy, it was the first time he didn't feel like an alien. Like he was like, Oh, yeah, that's like my tribe. And I remember, you know, we moved around a lot. We moved from place to place to place. And every time I'd have a best friend, we would leave. And, you know, my grandparents were poor, hardworking people. Grandfather was a mechanic, worked in a gas station. So we were just barely getting by. And when I was young and starting to not really feel like I had any roots, it was music that was the thing. I was like, That's what I'm missing, you know, hearing it on the radio. And as funny as this sounds, there's a song by Jimmy Dean named Big Bad John.
Luke Burbank: The sausage guy.
Nikki Sixx: Yeah, the sausage guy. Before he was the sausage guy.
Luke Burbank: He was a singer.
Nikki Sixx: He was a singer. And he wrote this song. And I was in Twin Falls, Idaho, and I would hear this song. And it's really no different than a Bruce Springsteen song or a Bob Dylan song or a million other storytellers and poets and stuff. And it wasn't just a pop song. It wasn't like a simple song with the verse chorus, and I remember calling the radio station all the time, that I need more of that. I need more of that. And, you know, later we would discover more of that, like Jim Croce and people like that. But I was also drawn to Deep Purple and Black Sabbath and Elton John and Aerosmith. And then for some reason, you know, like when the New York Dolls album first came out, very few people know who the New York Dolls are. But I shocked the system. And I remember going, well, if a band could sound like this and could look kind of like that, I mean, that was like the beginning of the recipe for what I would end up doing first in a band called London that was this close to making it. And then later and later, Mötley Crüe, you know, and that's, I think, why writing books were. For me as I feel like I'm a bit of a storyteller, I'm drawn to it. And that was in those first 21 years. I was probably, I don't know, nine, ten.
Elena Passarello: The storytelling songs. That's what hooked you.
Luke Burbank: Yeah. You write in this book that you have always really been interested in the work of Bukowski, and that when you write songs, when you come up with song titles, you're trying to sort of come up with something that really punches through. And you have written, you know, the most iconic Mötley Crüe songs. We are fans of Live Wire. That's literally the name of the show.
Elena Passarello: Yeah.
Nikki Sixx: We talk about that. Oh, wait a minute. I actually took that from a Stars album, which is a band a lot of people don't know a lot about, the band Stars. But anyway.
Luke Burbank: Bukowski.
Nikki Sixx: Bukowski, I think if it doesn't sting, what's the point? I don't think you just need another vanilla song title or another vanilla lyric or another vanilla band. I just think there's sometimes the rawer the better, you know, Shout at The Devil. There's so much in that, it's not even about the devil. They try to tell the media that for 40 years. There's no Satan involved here.
Luke Burbank: It was definitely banned in my evangelical Christian home.
Nikki Sixx: And you could've told your mom it wasn't with the devil. Even if it was the devil, it's not with them we're at shouting. But you know, Kickstart My Heart, Dr. Feelgood, Life is Beautiful, Home Sweet Home, things that are sticky. And what's interesting about the concept of sticky is I didn't know that I was so interested in marketing.
Luke Burbank: You're like reading Alice Cooper's biography. I mean, you were like studying this.
Nikki Sixx: Studying. Yeah, I'm studying the business. I'm studying how to not get ripped off. I'm studying these bands on vinyl. And I don't think there's anything unique about me. I think that if you could actually line up ten of your favorite artists, they might all tell you the same thing. I think we're all fans. I mean, I'm still a fan. Like, Aerosmith was my band. They'll always be my band. And there's something about having your band, you know? And I love that Mötley Crüe is that to people.
Luke Burbank: Right? I guess. I mean, you have had this experience that so many people fantasize about of standing on the stage, you know, in front of 50,000, 60,000 people who are screaming their brains out. What is that actually like from your perspective? I mean, can you even take that all in when you're up there or are you just thinking about playing the next note? Like, what's that experience like as someone who's actually had it?
Nikki Sixx: The first night, you're thinking about the next note, the second night, and thinking about why is your left foot moving like that. The third night, you're kind of life, Oh, this is kind of cool. And about the fourth night the band is in the groove in the pocket. It is so sexy, it's sweaty, it's hot. And you see the crowd and it just keeps getting better and better because it's this actual living, breathing animal that's happening. And they're singing back words that you wrote about something you experience. I mean, I feel like now in my life, it's just like, wow, I don't think in my life it was ever like, whoa, we're we're like, bad asses. It does feel bad ass, by the way.
Luke Burbank: I hope it does.
Elena Passarello: Sounds bad ass.
Nikki Sixx: It feels bad ass. But now it's just like, wow, like, I can't believe...I look over and it's the same damn guys. Like, what are they doing here? It's been. 40 years. Like, I don't even know how we still know each other. I know my band longer than I know anybody in my life except for a couple of family members. Now, you know, I see grandparents, parents and kids out there.
Elena Passarello: Cool.
Nikki Sixx: It's rad. But then sometimes I'm like, don't you want to cover the kids ears for this next year?
Elena Passarello: Right. For Girls, Girls, Girls.
Nikki Sixx: Yeah, exactly.
Luke Burbank: Well, this book is a really fun and informative read, particularly if you're a fan of Mötley Crüe and of Nikki Sixx. The book is the first 21. Nikki Sixx, thank you so much for coming on Live Wire.
Nikki Sixx: Thank you. It's been fantastic. You guys are great. Have a great rest of your day.
Luke Burbank: That was Nikki Sixx right here on Live Wire. Now, since we recorded that, that was back in 2021, Nikki and the rest of Mötley Crüe, they were able to go on that stadium tour, started it back in June. And now there is even talk of extending the tour outside of North America to three other continents. So they are going to be shouting at the devil and singing about home sweet home and....
Elena Passarello: Kick starting my heart.
Luke Burbank: Trying think of Mötley Crüe songs I can say the name of on polite public radio. Anyway, look for Mötley Crüe on a continent near you.
Luke Burbank: Live Wire is brought to you in part by Alaska Airlines. Alaska Airlines offers the most nonstops from the West Coast, including destinations like Hawaii, Palm Springs and San Francisco. And as a member of the OneWorld alliance, Alaska Airlines can connect you to more than 1000 destinations worldwide with their global partners. Learn more at Alaska Air dot com.
Luke Burbank: This is Live Wire. Of course, each week we ask our listeners a question and because we are talking so much about music on the show this week, we asked a lot of our listeners, What is your go to karaoke song? And Elena has been gathering up those responses. What are you seeing?
Elena Passarello: I love this one from Vicky Vicky's go to karaoke tune is Wild Thing and Vicky wants you to know, by the way, I am 67 years old now.
Luke Burbank: Wait, is it Wild Thing the Tone Loc song or is it Wild Thing, I think I love you, but I want to know for sure?
Elena Passarello: Now, isn't that an interesting question? I mean, I hope that Vicky is doing some kind of mash up of both.
Luke Burbank: Okay. What's but something else that our listeners like to sing?
Elena Passarello: Oh, I like the strategy here from Julian's answer. Julian's go to karaoke is Tequila by the Champs because you only have to sing one word.
Luke Burbank: I have been in a bar where somebody does that song and the anticipation is intense. It's almost like an ecstatic build. Like, if you're at, like an electronic show and everyone waits for, like, the beat to drop, then they throw their glow sticks in the air. It's like that when the person finally goes to tequila.
Elena Passarello: I would do, like, push ups until or like, hold the plank, you know, so some kind of physical feat and then the tequila so at least there would be something else to look at.
Luke Burbank: Or you could do like Pee-Wee Herman does in Pee-Wee's Big Adventure, and you could dance on the bar top, which of course, is what happens in that scene to that song, Tequila
Luke Burbank: All right. What's another song that our listeners love singing?
Elena Passarello: Okay, this is good strategy from Jack. I think Jack's go to is any Billy Joel song. Although, I mean any Billy Joel's song?
Luke Burbank: He's got a lot of songs.
Elena Passarello: Downeaster, Alexa, which is about the decline of the fishing industry. You think that would slap at karaoke?
Luke Burbank: I heard that song. Can I tell you this? And I like Billy Joel, actually. But I heard that song in a quilt shop in Kansas, and I had to Shazam it because I wanted to make sure I never heard it again. And I didn't realize it was Billy Joel. This is a totally true story. I held my phone next to the speaker because I said, I need to know what this is, so it never enters my life again.
Elena Passarello: Oh, my God. Please, let's go do some karaoke. I'm not going to tell you. It's like I'm going to sing, but it might involve a ship or two.
Luke Burbank: That sounds more like scary-oke Elena. All right. Thank you to everyone who sent in their responses. Those were great. We have another audience question for next week's show, which we will reveal at the end of this episode. So stick around for that. In the meantime, our next guest is well known for his several Academy Award nominated films, including The Amazing Far From Heaven, I'm Not There, and Carol. He also made the film Velvet Goldmine, which he's sort of returning to in a way, with his latest project. It's a documentary titled The Velvet Underground about the band The Velvet Underground and how they came about and then how they fell apart and why we are still talking about them all these years later. Todd Haynes, welcome to Live Wire.
Todd Haynes: Thanks, Luke Great to be on Live Wire.
Luke Burbank: Were you a huge Velvet Underground fan before getting into making this film?
Todd Haynes: No, I never really liked their music. I don't know what all the to do is about. No, I was a major, major Velvet Underground fan. And yeah, I consider the music and the discovery of the music, you know, which is always I think most people find it, you know, kind of out of order. You know, they kind of they find it circuitously. They find it kind of through a friend's recommendation. Or because Bowie put started to perform White Light/White Heat and and you know I'm Waiting for the Man in his Ziggy shows. You find it in a way that sort of makes it feel like your own discovery. And I think that would be true even if you were in the 1960s in New York City, where you still felt like part of a sort of secret society of very privileged art makers in a very unique time and place, you know, and you knew a little more than the people around you. And and part of that was experiencing this band.
Luke Burbank: I think this film is so great. It's sort of a tone piece almost. I mean, it's sort of it's linear in that it's introducing the members of the band and their career, but it's also kind of non-linear in the sort of visual way that it's presented. I mean, it's just a really interesting piece of filmmaking. Did you have an idea for the picture in your mind before you started or what we see in this film? Is that just what evolved in the editing process?
Todd Haynes: Well, of course, you know, everything that one says about the documentary process is true. You really are writing it as you go and you're conceiving it as you go. And it's a circular process where you keep dipping back into the well of the material that you've collected or the interviews that you've done. But that said, I had a very strong desire to make this a visual experience, this film. And I knew that this band was uniquely connected to this moment in avant garde film, unlike any band you could you could think of. Right. They were so intrinsically apart, not of just the Warhol scene. You know, there were all of these people who were making films and showing series at the Cinematheque with Jonas Mekas and the Velvet Underground were were for a time kind of a house band for the Cinematheque screenings. And so this offered so many opportunities visually. And right away, that was my kind of creative vision for what the film might be like. You know what I felt in my editors Affonso Goncalves and Adam Kurnitz. We felt like we were so privileged to be making a film using other films and other filmmakers in the storytelling, and that we could really honor the range of styles that were being explored by people working outside of conventional narrative filmmaking at the time.
Luke Burbank: Yeah, you have all this amazing footage, a lot of it's, you know, from the factory and other things. But as far as a Velvet Underground show, you know, where they sort of sat on a stage and were filmed in what we would consider normal concert lighting. Was it hard to find stuff like that? Does that kind of thing even exist?
Todd Haynes: It doesn't exist for this band. It's sort of what I knew right away. As soon as I said yes to doing this, I'm like, There's no traditional material associated with this band, period, go. You know?
Elena Passarello: Yeah.
Todd Haynes: But what there is, is the cinema of Andy Warhol. And I knew that that in of itself, even though I knew probably those films better than I knew a lot of these other films that we used to kind of weave through this documentary, I knew that even that cachet of material was going to be deep and was going to require and invite incredible penetration and exploration. And it did. And one of our first endeavors was to reach out to the Warhol Museum in Pittsburgh, to go there, to hang out with those guys, to hang out with the archivist, Greg Pierce, and to let him start to show me the treasures. You know, and he certainly did.
Luke Burbank: You're listening to Live Wire. I'm Luke Burbank here with Elena Passarello. We're interviewing Todd Haynes about his film The Velvet Underground. There is an amazing line about Lou Reed in the film where somebody says he was talented beyond his talent, which I think perfectly encapsulates why he was so watchable and listenable, even though on paper he did not have the most conventionally in-tune voice or the hottest guitar licks.
Todd Haynes: Yeah, I mean, look, Lou brought something very raw and visceral to the band and to all of his music. That said, he was the most extraordinary songwriter and lyricist and ultimately became this extraordinary guitar player. So his evolution as an artist continued to evolve. But at the very beginning, it was like that rawness was meeting with the the sort of avant garde virtuosity of John Cale and a very different kind of trajectory in music that brought him from Wales to the U.S.. So the two of them collided in all of these unexpected ways and it changed both of them. And ultimately that's what I think you describe in the film. That's what all great bands are, is more than the sum of their parts.
Luke Burbank: Lou Reed is a pretty complicated figure. I mean, depending on which biography you pick up, what were you feeling? Was your responsibility to kind of accurately portray him as somebody who definitely was a person who was really struggling with things?
Todd Haynes: Well, Lou Reed is one of our great artists. And with that, in his temperament and his upbringing and his unique character, there was a lot of tempestuousness and a lot of layers of what sounds like from people who knew him, even from the earliest years defenses that he would use with a with a measure of hostility to protect himself from pain and vulnerability and insecurity. And that seems to have described him no matter who you read through most of his career. So it wasn't just like rock and roll behavior. This was stuff in the character, in the sort of DNA of this very special and unique person. Doesn't mean he was easy to be around. But, you know, I think what's amazing is what's so clear to me is that this pain, these conflicts he put into the music right away. You know, he wrote Heroin in high school.
Luke Burbank: Wow.
Todd Haynes: And it's all in that song. And that's how The Velvet Underground were so different and distinguished themselves so coherently from so much other kinds of stuff that was going on in the 1960s, even in a very robust, incredibly productive period for for popular art and music. Very few people were talking about that kind of pain, that kind of ambivalence about being alive, the kind of need to, like, want to check out on certain kinds of drugs and check out from the world and explore some of these darker territories.
Luke Burbank: It feels a little bit like Lou Reed's musical journey kind of came full circle, and he starts out, as is in the film he says he wants to be a rock star. He's writing, you know, pop songs. And then you have The Velvet Underground with this very kind of avant garde sound, and people don't know quite what to make of it. And then towards the end, he starts to write these just absolute pop gems, you know, things like Walk on the Wild Side and and Sweet Jane. I mean, was that always in there? I mean, was it did he ultimately get to where he wanted to be, which was to be a rock and roll star writing pop songs?
Todd Haynes: I mean, I think he was able to touch all of those different territories and similar to David Bowie. You know, I think somebody who was always interested in exploring art and poetry and literature and finding influences outside of popular art to inform him and guide him, wanted to deal with issues of sexuality and areas that weren't being described as overtly and flagrantly in among other rock and roll artists. But both Bowie and Lou Reed also wanted some level of success. And so I think they navigated between those two often conflicting ideas. But also that's why it took all those different elements to bring things together, like a Ziggy Stardust concept that really drew from New York, drew from English ideas. It's it's how The Velvet Underground became one of the most influential bands in the history of popular music. And then his second solo outing in Transformer that David Bowie produced would be his most successful.
Luke Burbank: Yeah, you sort of, I think, answered my final question, which was what do you think the the kind of lasting influence of The Velvet Underground is?
Todd Haynes: You know what was so wild about doing this film and doing it when we did coming out of the Trump era, entering into the first season of COVID, is you really felt like this was this sort of endangered planet that we were visiting every day in the film, in the in the archives, in the whole sense of a cultural community, of a creative community, swapping ideas and and being in very close physical proximity to each other in ways we couldn't be during COVID and and ways that we were pulled apart from each other in the Trump years, you know, and in our digital life and culture and all the ways that we exist today. It made for the uniqueness of this time to be underscored, the preciousness of it. And we felt like we were putting it in a context that people could share it again, see it again in its sort of totality. And that hopefully that could be inspiring and it can be inspiring to young people who may not know a lot about this time. And it can be inspiring to people who miss things about this time and the way that we all behaved in times in the past where we could all physically, you know, cohabitate.
Luke Burbank: Well, it is a fascinating film. It's The Velvet Underground. It's Todd Haynes'new project. Todd, thanks so much for coming on Live Wire to talk about it.
Todd Haynes: Thanks, you guys. A real pleasure.
Luke Burbank: That was Todd Haynes right here on Live Wire, The Velvet Underground, the documentary we're talking about is available on Apple Plus now, and it's going to be getting a Criterion Collection release as a 4K digital master on December 13th. When the Criterion Collection gets involved, Elena, that's when you know, you've really done something. This is Live Wire. I'm Luke Burbank. That's Elena Passarello. Okay. We've got to take a quick break, but don't go anywhere because. We come back, we're going to hear some incredible music that blends jazz, soul and R&B from Melanie Charles. So stay with us.
Luke Burbank: Welcome back to Live Wire from PRX. I'm Luke Burbank, here with Elena Passarello. We've been talking about music this week on the show and now it's time to actually hear some music. Our musical guest this hour hails from Brooklyn and has spent the past few decades blending jazz, soul and R&B in ways that have caught the attention of The New York Times, NPR's Tiny Desk, SZA, Gorillaz. Her album, Y'all Don't Really Care About Black Women, pays homage to black women in music and breathes new energy into works by Billie Holiday and Sarah Vaughan, among others. Melanie Charles joined us last fall on Live Wire. Let's take a listen to that.
Luke Burbank: Melanie Charles, welcome to Live Wire. I have really been enjoying your music. It's just so hard to describe because I feel like you bring in so many different elements. One of them, you're a flutist, which you just don't see a lot in music these days outside of maybe the classical space. When did you start playing flute?
Melanie Charles: I started playing flute around junior high school, actually. I went to I.S. 318 in Brooklyn. Actually, it's the same junior high that Jay-Z went to. Fun fact.
Luke Burbank: Whoa.
Melanie Charles: But not at the same time, obviously. He's a few years older than me.
Luke Burbank: And he notably uses flute in Big Pimpin.
Melanie Charles: And maybe there's a connection. I guess so. Maybe there's something there. But, yeah, like at that time, I was doing a lot of the Miss America talent competition pageants and stuff. Like I grew up in like talent show pageant world. And when it came time to choose our instruments, I was out of class. I was in then one of those competitions. So by the time I got to school, they stuck me with the flute and I was so upset, like I wanted saxophone or trumpet. And they were like, Look, all we have is flute, so deal with it. But of course, I ended up falling in love with the instrument. So yeah, it started back then. I started classically training. I was playing in the orchestra. I also dabbled on Piccolo as well. So yeah, with time I found a way to incorporate my flute with other styles of music that I'm doing.
Luke Burbank: The title of this album is Y'all Don't Really Care About Black Women, which is a pretty provocative title, and I think it's sort of right in there what, what the messages that you're that you're looking to express. I'm wondering how you arrived at the decision to name that the album that.
Melanie Charles: So you know when Verve Records approached me to do this remix project you know, they have a Verve Remix series that they do. And usually they just get different producers, deejays who come in and flip songs. But of course, me being the artsy person that I am, I wasn't doing regular remixes, I was really doing re-imaginings. And, you know, by the time it came for me to start choosing the songs, it was during the lockdown. It was around the time that Brianna was shot and killed.
Luke Burbank: Breonna Taylor.
Melanie Charles: Breonna Taylor. And it just really was a rude awakening and a reminder that black women in this country are really not protected and cared for. And, you know, this is not a new phenomenon. One of the people that I celebrate in this album is Nina Simone. There's a famous interview where she talks about how one of the promoters didn't pay her, and so she had to show up with a shotgun in order for the man to pay. Do you know about this?
Luke Burbank: I think I've heard that story. Yeah. It's a famous one.
Melanie Charles: The title just suddenly came to me one day. It just hit me. And the label, God bless them. At first, they were a little bit like, geez, like, are you sure? That's kind of not a very warm title? And I was like, Yeah, but, but it's true, you know, and they, and they had to agree with that. And I'm really glad that it's been really well-received just by hearing the title. I notice people are already interested. So mission accomplished.
Luke Burbank: What song are we going to hear?
Melanie Charles: You're going to hear Woman of the Ghetto. It was the first single that we put out on this project. It is a remake sung by the great Marlena Shaw. She's the only woman that I reimagined that is still alive. So hopefully, Marlena, if you out there, I hope you like this clip. I hope you like it.
Luke Burbank: Well, let's hear it. This is Melanie Charles here on Live Wire. Her new record is. Y'all don't really care about black women. Let's take a listen.
[Woman of the Ghetto plays]
Elena Passarello: Full performance. Full.
Luke Burbank: Her new album is Y'all Don't Really Care About Black Women. Melanie, thank you so much for coming on Live Wire and sharing that with us. That was really incredible.
Melanie Charles: Thank you for having me, Luke. Thank you for having me, Elena.
Luke Burbank: That was Melanie Charles right here on Live Wire. And you can check out more of her work at Melanie Charles dot com. All right. Before we get out of here, a little preview of next week's episode. We are going to be talking to podcaster and former public radio star Sam Sanders about his obsession with pop culture. We're also going to be hearing from author Erika L. Sanchez about her new memoir, Crying in the Bathroom, and the profound impact that Lisa Simpson had on her life as a young person. And as always, we are going to be looking to get your answer to our listener question. Elena, what are we asking the Live Wire listeners for next week's show?
Elena Passarello: What pop culture moment lives in your head rent free?
Luke Burbank: That's pretty much all that's going on in my head, sadly, at any time.
Elena Passarello: Yeah, same.
Luke Burbank: Alright. If you have an answer to that question, a pop culture moment that lives in your head, rent free. Go ahead and hit us up on Twitter or Facebook. We're at Live Wire Radio pretty much everywhere. Alright. That's going to do it for this week's episode of Live Wire. A huge thanks to our guests, Nikki Sixx, Todd Haynes and Melanie Charles. Live Wire is brought to you in part by Alaska Airlines.
Elena Passarello: Laura Hadden is our executive producer. Heather De Michele is our executive director. Our producer and editor is Melanie Sevcenko. Our assistant editor is Trey Hester. Our marketing manager is Paige Thomas and our production fellow is Tanvi Kumar. A. Walker Spring composes our music. Molly Pettit is our technical director and mixer.
Luke Burbank: Additional funding provided by the James F and Marion L Miller Foundation, Live Wire was created by Robin Tenenbaum and Kate Sokoloff. This week we like to thank members David Shaw of Portland, Oregon and Anna Rankin of Bellingham, Washington. For more information about our show or how you can listen to our podcast, head on over to Live Wire Radio dot org. I'm Luke Burbank. For Elena Passarello and the whole Live Wire crew, thanks for listening and we will see you next week.
PRX.
